S2, E20: How Eli McCann Became Utah's Favorite Story Teller

A lot of people leave a high-demand religion and end up with either a scorched-earth break or a lifetime of quiet resentment. We wanted a third option, so we called up Eli: a gay, ex-LDS writer and lawyer who somehow keeps deep, loving ties with a still-practicing Mormon family while staying honest about why he left. The result is a Salt Lake City conversation about faith, identity, and what it takes to choose peace without pretending the past did not shape you.

We talk about coming out with intention, protecting your story from being “used” as an example, and how the emotional arc can shift from anger to something closer to grounded indifference. Eli shares a framework that’s helped him and a lot of us in Utah: separating the church as a corporation from the people you love and the culture you still understand, whether that’s fry sauce jokes or the weird nostalgia of general conference weekends.

Then we go deep on creativity and modern media. Eli traces his path from early blogging to a wrong-number text that went viral, to living in Palau, to building a storytelling podcast, to becoming a Salt Lake Tribune humor columnist and author of We’re Thankful for the Moisture. We also unpack the reality of content creation and social media: why “going full-time” can kill the joy, why authenticity beats audience-guessing, and how story-driven TikToks can move people to action without a hard sell. That same storytelling muscle shows up in LGBTQ advocacy with Equality Utah, including the strategy that helped pass a unanimous conversion therapy ban.

If you like thoughtful Utah culture talk, ex-Mormon perspectives, LGBTQ stories, writing advice, and the behind-the-scenes mechanics of going viral, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves a good story, and leave a review with the line that stuck with you most.

Check out the DLX 313 at Via313 today!

Questions about buying or selling a home in Utah? Email Spencer spencer.ford@vuere.com or use the contact form here to get in touch

Visit www.luxeautomotive.com or use this link to request a quote

Please be sure to like, review, follow, subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and family! See you next time 

Transcript

Cold Open And The Setup

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I said, I would be an incredible guest. Yeah. And came out as gay and ended up marrying a man. So, you know, those things didn't go together very well. A kid who loved to write. I always loved creative writing. I loved humor writing. And I started writing a humor column for the Salt Lake Tribune about three and a half years ago. My creative career has taken some really interesting turns over the past 20 years. I was at well, I actually need to have my phone out to make sure I don't miss anything. So it's, you know, it's just sort of snowballed into this thing that I never could have anticipated. But now it's Eli's turn. It's my turn. It's your turn. To do an incredible job on this podcast. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

No, I'm excited to talk to you because, like, there's very few people I talk to where they are as dynamic and multidimensional of a person as you are.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Oh, that's nice of you to say. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

But then also, like, the my favorite thing that's been the experience with you so far is like, because like me, people will come on, be like, oh, this person would be a good guest. And sometimes I'm like, oh, that's good that you would think that, but like, no. But then there's people like, oh, absolutely. So I DM you, I'm like, hey, Eli, um, Rosie mentioned to be a good guest. You're like, yeah, she's right. I would be.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

And I'm like, I I think I said I would be an incredible guest.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Yes. And so right there, I was like, okay, if I wasn't intrigued before, then here we are now. Because I even had to look back because I remember, like, when you sit and stare at your like notifications timeline when you post on social media, like you like, and maybe it's just like my own ADHD brain of like how I interpret data. Like I start to see trends, I start to see some of the same accounts. And like I remember I'd seen your name before pop up a couple of times in your account. And then I look back and like you've been following it for a while, which is like wild. Like most people have it. And so, and I remember when I looked it up originally, because like most people, especially like early times, if someone follows, I'll look, see who it is. Try to again ADHD brain data of like, who are these people? Is there any sort of trend? What should I think about this? Sure. And I was like, oh, cool, like columnist, editor, whatever, like cool, like cool. And then moved on. And then it's like fun to fast forward now and see like how much I understand that now, but then also have like so much more curiosity into you as a person. Cause I think it's fun to have Rosie have introduced me to you because I think there is a lot of in overlap between you and Rosie of the way that you look at Salt Lake, the culture, interact with it all, kind of be this persona to help kind of like digest, especially like be a bridge between so many different communities. Um TLDR of all that, I'm excited to talk.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah, me too. Rosie Card is does such a good job of breaking down complicated local political issues and helping people understand them on social media. I I will not pretend that I do it to the degree that she does, but I think she and I I would I I agree with you that she and I speak a similar language when we're talking about these kinds of issues. And so she's been really fun to kind of collaborate with and put our brains together when we're both becoming obsessive over a local issue. You know, she's she's a terrific person to have in your corner.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

No, totally. And she's someone too who like if the algorithm were to put someone in front of me, she would not be like me and her, like, aren't like I mean, Venn diagram overlap, we have a lot of similarities. Um but I appreciate everything that she does, especially for the audience that she has as that audience has changed over the years, from like, and I didn't even know half of her story until we recorded of like literally working for the church, creating like making temple wedding gowns and temple clothing to like now where she is, it's like, well, hello story. Like, yeah, and if you haven't listened yet, go check it out because Rosie's an amazing human, her story is equally as fascinating. Um, but now it's Eli's turn. It's my turn, it's your turn to do an incredible job on this podcast. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But I want to know because actually, you're like one of the few people I actually need to have my phone out to make sure I don't miss anything because there's so many little intricacies of the story that I don't want to miss. In some episodes, if I were to record, it'd be like, okay, like fine, we missed one bullet, whatever. But I want to make sure that I at least understand in touch base on it all. But I mean, set the context for me because I know, like, I mean, born and raised LDS, I mean, nearby, I mean, talk to me a little bit about like the early Eli years.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

Yeah, I was I was born uh and raised in South Jordan, Utah. So I lived in the in the valley in the Salt Lake Valley most of my life. I've moved away a couple of times uh in adulthood, but I keep finding my way back here. And yeah, I was raised in an active LDS family. My family is all still very active LDS. I left the church about 12 years ago uh and came out as gay and and

Leaving The LDS Church With Love

SPEAKER_02 4:40

ended up marrying a man. So, you know, those things didn't go together very well. Uh but uh but I I was really fortunate to have an incredibly supportive family, despite the fact that they are, you know, my parents and my siblings are practicing Latter-day Saints. Uh, they've never done done anything other than just completely support and celebrate me. And so when I came out as gay and when I, you know, told them I was leaving the church, uh, all they did was cheerlead me through that. Like if that's what you need to do to be happy, then that's what you should do, you know. And so um, I was really, really fortunate in that way. And because of that, uh, I find myself at this point in my life, you know, I'm in my early 40s now, and I find myself at this point in my life. I don't really have a lot of baggage or angst around my former religion. I think I did a bit as I was sort of navigating, leaving that and trying to um uh unbury a lot of the uh homophobic messaging that, you know, had been a bit present in my life uh from childhood. But once I worked through that, it it's been easy because of my good relationship with my family to just sort of be like, okay, everybody's faith journey is their own, that's theirs, this is mine, and we're all just sort of like living in harmony together. And so um, yeah, I mean, that that's a kind of a broad answer to a broad question. But yeah, that's my background.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

I know, but I always love like the like faith crisis stories of people because I mean I went through mine, I mean, it's like it's always hard to be like, and here's the day, you know? Like I mean, mine was always, and I think I've told the story before. So if you've heard this, press skip twice. I think that's about a minute, which will take me about that time to get through the story. But was living in Seattle at the time with a partner, which was great because like there is no, like, it's not the church anymore. It's not what'd you do on Sunday? It's just nobody, everybody does their own thing, but it's not like as in your face as obviously here in the bubble that we live in. Yeah. But I remember once we were leaving to go to church, and it was like a weird ward. Like it was like, because sometimes you go to church, like oh, social, I can hang out with people, but I went there. I was like, cool, like thanks, but no thanks on the personal perspective. But so we got in the car to go to church, and ironically, the street that we had to cross was being blocked by the pride parade. I think it was in June of like 2018, if I had to guess. Okay. And we both kind of look at each other and we're like, eh, you turn, go park car, and then go join them. And that was kind of like what I use as the story of like the the time I made the decision to not anymore. But the thing I love about um kind of like the faith crisis stories of people is it brings people together so quickly. Like, if I sit down next to someone and we're, I mean, having coffee, drinks, food, whatever, like, and we share that story, it's like instantly we skipped like five steps of uh getting to know someone, like, yeah, we have such a unique, similar experience. Oh, yes. And I also like what you said about like, yeah, like it's it's so far removed now that it's no longer like plagues my day-to-day. I don't have this animosity and like hatred towards it. It's just like entering this land of indifference.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Because I remember when I went through it, it was like I couldn't, if someone brought up anything church later, I'd be so angry, I would be so like uh upset and just have to feel like it was my job to like to educate people again and be like, you don't understand what you don't understand. Right. Whereas now it's like, oh yeah, cool. Like you do your thing, you do mine. Like if you have questions or like want to talk to someone, I'm here, but otherwise, like, like live your life.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah, you know, I think the thing that I did early on in leaving the faith that was really help healthy for me and helpful in this way was, you know, I I had some anger and and frustration and you know, that those sorts of feelings. And I I didn't like feeling that way at all. And I was like, I don't want to spend the rest of my life feeling mad at this thing because then it will just continue to quote unquote ruin my life. You know, it it I had determined that it was kind of ruining my life when I was in it. Why am I still letting it do that now? And so I spent a lot of time thinking about like, well, what what am I actually angry at here? And for me, it over time I was able to really distinctly separate three things uh from one another. And one was the the church corporation, which I have honestly no love for, and I just that and that that is the piece where I think my anger was was I was mad at the the corporation, I was mad at the the the structure of the church, and then there were the people that were in it, and I have great relationships with a lot of practicing Mormons. I'm not mad at them, right? You know, and then there's the the culture piece, which is I mostly find funny, and so it was sort of for me, I was like, okay, the piece that I'm angry at is that first piece. I am just going to kiss that goodbye. I don't want to deal with it anymore, and I'm going to find the joy and the beauty in these other two pieces. And uh, and you know, it's not like an overnight decision, like, okay, now I'm not mad anymore. But it was sort of like that reframing over time helped me get into this practice and this habit where now it's it's so rare that religion gets an angry emotional reaction out of me at this point. You know, the church will do things sometimes that I'm just like, I disapprove of that. And sometimes I will even speak out about it if I feel like it's gonna affect people in my community. But I don't have like this visceral anger over it in a way that, you know, I think I maybe did a little

Anger, Indifference, And Reframing Faith

SPEAKER_02 9:45

bit earlier on.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Yeah, no, I think that's important too. Like that reframing is good because to look at it as a whole is one thing. I mean, especially like I'm similar in that most of my family is still in, so I have to still navigate a lot of the, I mean, cultural pieces, even I mean the corporate pieces in a way that like doesn't harm those relationships with people that I love the most, because then that would be terrible for everybody. Totally. Um, but at the same time, like we both make the conscious decision to still live in and be a part of this OLA community, and that will also be a part of there. Yeah. And like the question I always love with people, whether they're like transplants here or I'm away and they ask, it's like, oh, like, are you Mormon? And I'm like, uh by belief or by like culture. Yeah. Because it's like kind of like Judaism, where it's like you go to people and they're or even Catholicism, I guess, where it's like, oh, like, are you Catholic? Like, oh, like born but don't believe. And so, like, at the same time, it's like, oh, cool, I can make fry sauce jokes and like all of these weird, like soda. I mean, go down the list of typical tropes of some weird Utah and Salt Link and Mormon culture. It's like still baked into my blood and who I am, but I don't have this whole part of it as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

And so I'm curious of like, I mean, especially comparing to the conversation I had with Tyler Glenn from Neon Trees, where it's kind of like interesting with like I mean, the faith crisis itself is one thing, but then when you have like that sexuality crisis as well, it breeds a whole nother dynamic to it. And like with him, it was interesting because he was like, When I came out as gay, my family's like, Oh my gosh, like this is amazing. Like, sure, we accept you. But then he's like, I'm gonna leave the church. So like, wait, wait, now hold on a minute.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

That part is hard for people, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

But I'm curious with yours, like, which was that first pillar to fall? And if it was one of those like fighting who you were from, I mean, as long as you can remember, or if it was kind of more of a gradual recognition within yourself.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

I knew I was gay, like as you know, as early as I knew anything. I mean, I I remember being in kindergarten and I, you know, I had crushes on the boys in class, but and I, you know, I didn't know what gay people were because I was five. But I remember having crushes on the boys in class and knowing just sort of implicitly, like, I don't think I should tell people this. Like, this is not something I should tell. And so I always knew I was gay, uh, but I I just sort of, as I kind of grew up, I tried to put it out of mind because it was just like, I don't know what to do with this because it's not compatible with um the religion. Uh, and so I just thought, well, I'll just never tell anyone. I'll just, you know, stay in the closet my entire life. As a young adult, I tried dating women. It never went well. Uh, it never lasted more than a couple of weeks. And um, after a while, by the time I hit my mid-20s, I was like, I'm I'm never marrying, I'm never getting married. Like, this is not a path for me. So I just thought I would just stay, you know, alone and single for the rest of my life. And for me, and this is a just a very specific kind of type A personality uh within me that uh I I was never going to tell anyone I was gay until I had determined within myself exactly what I was going to do with that information. So I have a lot of friends who they come out to their families and they say, and I don't know what this means for the for the church, but I'm gonna keep trying to go. You know, they'll do that sort of thing. For me, I was like, I I will never tell anyone I'm gay until I know like concretely what I'm going to do with my faith because I don't want to navigate that journey with anybody else. I don't want anybody to have opinions about it that might affect my decision. Um, and I also felt really worried about if I was, you know, going to church and came out as gay, that I my story would be weaponized. Uh, you know, families would use it to tell their gay children, like, look, Eli's doing it, you can still do it too. And so I had sort of all these feelings around that. And so by the time I was ready to come out and tell my family, I had determined and I'm leaving the church. Like all of these things, none of it was on the table. It wasn't up for up for discussion for me. I was 29 years old. And so I I went to my family, and it was, I need I need you guys to know I'm gay. I'm not going to stay in the church. Like these are just that, that is what it is. Table stakes, like what we're starting. And so, so there was never any pushback because I never presented it as if there, you know, was a conversation to be had around that. I was happy to talk about it and answer questions, and my family had some questions, but but they never pushed back because I never presented it in a way that suggested I was looking for feedback, you know, on that.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Well, and like that's one thing that it's interesting to like compare stories with with people, because like there's kind of this like let's call it like checkpoint in like the faith crisis where it's like, oh, I can be part of a change, like I can fix this. Um, and like people like me, like Tyler Glenn and like you know like David Archoletta, they're like, Well, I can be part of the like the fix, I can be part of like being that I mean uh example that people would want to use be like, well, if you're gay, well there we have we have one too, like like come on in. But then eventually everybody gets to the point they're like, oh yeah, there's there's not space for this. Because like the it's called the corporate entity, like we talked about. It's like nah, like we can't do that anymore. But so so you come out, you have all this. I mean I guess going, it's probably going back a little bit, but I mean, talk to me about your career at this time because like I'm always fascinated by people who get into like media of different sorts, especially, I mean, both like the let's call it like the corporate media of like the things that we see and like just like news the way we know it now, compared to like oh, I'm gonna do my own thing of like this blog. I mean, especially like pre-social media world, like it fascinates me that people did that. Yeah. So I mean, talk to me about like you finding your voice and like wanting to be like a person.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

It was so I so yeah, I mean, my career is really bifurcated. I'm a practicing lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

I forgot that part, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah, I'm a practicing lawyer. That's the the more boring part to talk about. But um, I my creative career has taken some really interesting turns over the past 20 years. I was a kid who loved to write. I always loved creative writing, I loved humor writing. Um, and so growing up, I was constantly just scribbling away in notebooks and writing stories and whatever else. And uh in the mid-2000s, I learned what blogging was. And I started this blog. It was called it just gets stranger.blogspot.com. I still write at this thing, although now it's just itjustgets stranger.com. But I've I've continuously written there for 20 years now. And I was writing stories about like, here's what I'm up to, here's what's going on with the humorous you spin on it. And my family was reading it and no one else, right? And um, in 2011, I had just graduated law school. I moved to Salt Lake City, I went to BYU law

Coming Out While Protecting Your Story

SPEAKER_02 16:05

and I moved to Salt Lake City. And one uh evening I got a wrong number text to my phone. It was, I had like this flip phone, you know, and I got this text from this woman who was like, Hey, you know, it was so great to meet you at so-and-so's wedding shower. Do you do you want to go half season a wedding gift for her? We, you know, we had talked about it or whatever, and I don't know who this is. And so I responded to this person as if, you know, she had contacted the right person. I was like, Yeah, we should get them um Snuggies. We can get like couple Snuggies, and like they would, we could get like patterns on them. They could be so cute. And I'm just kind of trolling this person. And she ends up texting back and forth with me, and she's so politely trying to tell me, like, hey, maybe we could like think of a different idea. I don't know if they would want us to. Like, no, they want to snuggle. And I'm yeah, and I'm trying to sell her on the Snuggie, right? And I'm just like, no, no, like I really think Leopard Print in particular, like you have not seen they're really high quality, you know. And and we text for like a day before she finally figures out that she has texted the wrong number. And it was this hilarious exchange. And so I um pay posted the entire exchange on my blog and um for my family to read because they're like, oh, they'll get a kick out of this. And uh and I shared it on Facebook. Uh, that was the only social media I had at the time. It was kind of the only social media at the time, 2011.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

And uh unless you're gonna go hop back on MySpace or something.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and I I went for a run, and when I got back from the run, it was my first experience of ever seeing something that I had done on the internet, quote unquote, go viral. It had been shared all across Facebook. And I was like, what is happening? You know, and it was it was a really new experience for me. But the result of that experience was suddenly I had a ton of people reading my blog that I didn't know. And I had never written to an audience that I didn't know before. Because before it was mostly just like your own family. Only my family. And like diary, like share with people you yeah, five people were reading it. It was my my two parents and my three sisters. That was pretty much it. And now, you know, I was like, oh my God, I'm writing to you hundreds of thousands of people uh at this point who are like checking this blog on a monthly basis. And uh, and so it sort of changed the way I was writing. And then uh pretty shortly after that, I took a job in the Equatorial Pacific in a country called Palau. And so when I was wait, connect those dots for me.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

That's like so I was so I made this blog, it got popular on Facebook. So anyway, there's this small little nuanced little place that I decided to do.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

So uh, you know, I again I was a lawyer, I was uh about a year out of law school at this point, and I applied to this job in Palau. They they were looking for uh legal counsel for the judiciary in Palau. It's this tiny, tiny country, 17,000 people in the entire country. And so I applied um and couldn't believe that I got the job. And so suddenly I was moving to Palau. And uh so once I got there, I was now writing this blog about like here's what it's what it's like for me for this year every day to live in Palau and like experience this kind of different culture, experience what it's like living on a small town in, you know, in a small town on a very small island. And and so that, you know, of course, got interest, you know, people were interested in that story. And so since then, I've just I've continued to write. Um, I started podcasting in 2016. Uh I I have a podcast called Strangeville, and it's just a storytelling podcast where I invite people on to just like share a funny or interesting story of of some kind. Uh, and we we started doing a live storytelling show in Salt Lake City where we get people, you know, coach them to tell a 15-minute story on stage. And that that's been an awful lot of fun. And so, you know, it's my my creative career kind of grew that way. Um, and then I started writing a humor column for the Salt Lake Tribune about three and a half years ago and started writing books as well. So it's, you know, it's just sort of snowballed into this thing that I never could have anticipated.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Well, I love that like I like that you have this context from like your youth of being like, oh, I liked creative writing. I like this sort of thing. Cause like there's it's interesting, like the more that I've like chased that inner child voice of mine, the more happy I've been and doing things that I actually resonate with, compared to being like, all right, people, do you do you validate me in this? You want me to do like what's okay,

Blogging, Going Viral, Then Moving To Palau

SPEAKER_01 20:10

cool. Like then I'll keep doing it, even though it's like not really rewarding and I don't really enjoy this as much as I would like to. Yeah. And because like even looking back in my childhood, and even as I went to my friend's house this week, who's like a huge astrologist, she's like, Well, you were born to do this, like be a podcast and like go create social media. I'm like, why are you the first person to tell me? But like before it was like I was a theater kid, I like we would make videos and I would always just be like the the funny person who like made the intro and just like put the foot with a camera on Eric and it'll work itself out. And so it's funny how like there's so many like creativity in itself is almost like diminished by society, especially in like the call of capitalism America, where if it doesn't generate money and or like is one of these like five titles, like a lawyer, then people really don't care to kind of like go get a real job type thing. Yeah, but then it's fun as people go back to a lot of that, and again, like that creative self through your blog, through your podcast, through all these different like mediums that weren't you like didn't even exist at that time. Totally. But now it gives us like creative freedom for people to go do something that they never thought that they would do, which is like I mean daunting, especially when it's like I mean, you have these two paths in the road of like, oh yeah, just keep going doing law. Like you'd be fine, you'd have success. You maybe would hate your life as much as I know all my lawyer friends hate their lives, but but then it's like this bet on myself, bet on what I want to do, and I'm gonna go chase that instead and kind of make this closed loop back on on that creative side. Because I've seen a lot of in that in the make, especially other people, as they kind of take that risk and realize, like, oh, actually, it's I don't think this is what I necessarily wanted to do, but now I can and I'm going to.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Yeah. You know what's interesting? And I would I would love to hear more people kind of talk about this, but I I have always been really leery about making my creative pursuits my full time job. Because uh for me personally, I feel like the moment I did that, it would I would lose a lot of the joy that I get out of creative work. And um I have like I I don't really like social media very much. I don't like being on it, but I use social media to promote my my writing. That's the whole purpose of it is to just promote my writing. And so I have uh, you know, I'm the most active on TikTok right now. I have like a pretty big TikTok presence and I have people from time to time ask me, like, why don't you just do like uh, you know, content creation full-time, like you could make enough money off of it. And I'm like, yeah, I know, but I think I would be totally miserable. Um, I I never want to feel like I have to be putting out creative work or a certain type of creative work to feed my family. And I just I think that that would change what I was doing. And I think it would change how I feel about what I'm doing. But a lot of people do creative work as their full-time job. And I'm sure many of them really enjoy that. It just from the outside, looking into that kind of life, it that seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I don't know what do you have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 22:57

No, I agree completely. And I'll tell a couple stories that kind of emulate my thoughts on it. So, number one, so my sister, who I'm really close with, her name's Kirsten, she played soccer at Utah State. Um, D1 school. I mean, she always loved soccer, but doing it in that way started to make it to be something that she didn't like. There was a lot more politics involved. She was forced to do things and like just made her love of it fall apart. Yeah. And also, like when anybody comes to me for like professional advice of like, well, you know, I really love doing this, I kind of want to do it for my career. I usually tell them, don't do that. Yeah. Like, do something that you like, that you enjoy, that you can do every day and it can pay your bills, but you don't let it take the light away from your life. Yeah. Because as soon as you're forced to do something, you're gonna start to resent it. Yeah. And and so, like for me, like that's kind of like where I'm at with a lot of like decisions I want to make is like, and it's harder too later in life. Because if I were to be high school graduate in college, be like, cool, I'm just gonna go start a podcast, start creating content, and like something blows up, then it's like, oh, cool. Like, I don't really have any other decisions to make because I can make money and it works. Whereas like now, like in my mid-30s, where like I have a pretty good career that pays me pretty well, has a really good trajectory. Like now, instead of saying, like, oh, it makes me money, I can do this, there's growth. Now it's like, here's this that I have. For me to feel comfortable leaving this, I now have to equal this or somewhere around there. I have a mortgage, I have expenses, I have a quality of life that I enjoy. And so that becomes a lot more daunting. And like, similar to you, like I enjoy I enjoy creating content. I like being on social media. I think it's so funny to like literally like make a video and go to my group and be like, look how stupid this is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Post. Like, yeah. And and like, so I I also don't want to lose that light. And then also, like, it's nice when it is because like I like that you said, I create, I mean, I go on social media, I create content to promote my writing. That's what I want to do. And that's for a lot of people. I mean, it's like whether it's the typical guy that's doing his fitness coaching

Podcasting And Building A Creative Life

SPEAKER_01 24:50

or someone creating a business, or I mean, whatever that could be, it's usually um something to support the main cause that they're trying to do. And so when you isn't in the main cause, it's not like you're emotionally attached to like, oh, how are my views trending? How's my monetization trending? How are my followers? Did I lose anybody? Whereas I feel like if I were to make it full time, I would become obsessive with it. Yeah. And like if I had a slow month, I would be pulling my hair out compared to like, eh, like, and and scared and scared, like, what if the platform goes away?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

You know, what if I like and case in point, by the way, I will periodically, especially if I if I share something political, you know, some kind of political take, I will periodically have people messaging me or commenting and saying, I'm going to unfollow you. And I I read those and that they do nothing to me. I'm just like, I don't care. Like what you have fully misunderstood our our relationship. I'm not here for you. I'm here for me. And if you enjoy it, then great. And if you don't, then go somewhere else. But if if I was relying on their eyes to feed my family, I think that would feel different. And I would be a lot more nervous about being off my authentic self because it's like, is my authentic self going to pay the bills this month or is it not? Do I need to be something else? Yeah. And that that sounds miserable to me. I I heard a this um analogy a little while back that really resonated with me. And it was being a creative person in this world and trying to like grow your creative pursuits and you know, um have eyes on them feels a lot like being in an orchestra, being in the symphony or something, and you you play the clarinet, but you're told, okay, that's great. You play the clarinet, you also need to be really good at the trumpet, and social media is the trumpet. And you're like, Well, I don't want to play the trumpet. Yeah, but if you want to be able to play the clarinet, you you you also have to play the trumpet. You have to be really good at the trumpet. And to me, that's what that that resonated with me so much because I'm like, I want I want to write, you know, I want to write books, I want to write columns, I want to write funny stories, I want to um engage in in uh oral storytelling. In order for me to do that and have people actually see it, I also have to be good at the trumpet, which is social media. Yeah. And um most of social media, I I don't enjoy doing it, but I'm just like, I just need to. TikTok is a little bit different. I it TikTok is a bit fun for me because it combines the the oral uh storytelling. My my TikTok account is I just record like videos.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Like you are a TikTok per like not saying like you're a TikTok person, but like TikTok is creative for people like you where it's like, yeah, let me tell you what happened today.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Yeah, and so I can get on TikTok and just tell a story, and I'm like, this is fun because what I want to do is storytelling. Yes. Um, and so that that has been fortunate for me, but like I hate posting on Instagram. I despise Twitter at this point, you know. I I used to like it as sort of a community gathering place uh and a place for me to like throw out jokes here and there. At this point, I don't even know why I'm on that app. But you know, that so social media is it's just it's so fascinating to watch how it is changing and my relationship with it continues to change. And yet I still feel a bit beholden to it because I want my my writing and my other creative work to be out there in the world.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Well, I had this same epiphany in it's probably like late 2024. I'd been doing the podcast for like a year. It was like growing and doing fine, but like if I really wanted it to be like something more than just like a couple like dozen people I know listening to something, I like had this epiphany where I was like, Well, I want to like make this pay for itself and have money, advertisers, whatever. I also want it to grow. Yeah, and I remember I was sitting in my bathroom getting ready, and it was like this, oh shit, I have to like become like a content creator. Yep. And so I started like, I mean, just like as most people do, like, oh, spend some time on Cap Cut and like we'll do a template. I'm like, y'all think this is funny, cool. Y'all think it's this? And all of a sudden I was like, oh, that one did pretty good. Yeah, this one did pretty good. And then it really wasn't until I started doing more like talking heads of just like random Utah things, stories, lore, local.

SPEAKER_02 28:50

I mean, which by the way, thank you. I I really, really love them, and I hope you will continue doing them for as long as it's enjoyable to you.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

And it is, and it's like, and because I had this like weird feeling of like, I don't want to be one of those people, but then I found myself becoming one of those people, and I was like, Oh, actually, I do like this now. Yeah, and it's fun too, because like I do love the creative process of, I mean, especially if I'm like working with a brand or something, and they're like, hey, like here's like one parameter you have to be beholden to. Rest is up to you. I'm like, mm-hmm, okay, now my brain's going a million miles an hour, I'll be right back. And I think it'll have posted by the time I release this episode. But I had like UTA reach out to me. Okay, cool. And they're like, hey, listen, we haven't really worked with in like I always hate the term influence. Like, remember I recorded with someone who is like a uh Utah foodie account, and I've called her an influencer. She's like, ooh, content creator. Yeah, yeah. And then now I'm to the point, like, if someone's like, so influence like no no no content creator. I do think there's a difference, by the way. Well, and I like to me it's an input versus an outcome. Like, I can create content. The influence is a like the secondary effect of what I do. I can't just go influence people. Yeah, yeah. And so it's like they come to me and they're like, hey, like, we haven't really worked with like content creators or influencers before, but like we have this like education piece we want to do better with, we've really enjoyed your content. Would you want to do something? I'm like, yeah. And so they're like, hey, like we have this. So for the people who don't know, on Second South and Salt Lake, there's these things called these bat lanes. And if you've ever been to any city with a population over half a million, every city has them. It's for buses to go be able to drive, make right turns easier, make traffic flow a lot easier, and also just make public transportation a lot more reliable, quick, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And so they're like, yeah, like would love to hear kind of your proposal, but what you do for video. So naturally, I'm like, well, Bat Lane's like Batman. So it's like, the Bat Lane. Yeah. And so then I get my girlfriend to come film me into like 10 p.m. on a Tuesday night. And then I throw a couple things together, and Capcott sent it to him. And he's like, and again, I'm like, look how stupid this is. So yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so they're like, we are all dying. This is hilarious. Like, let's do another one. And so it's like, I love those moments. It's awesome. Where it's like, let's put our brains together and put something together that's like creative and fun. But then I also love like these videos where it's been fun with people, like there was someone who came up to me the other day, and it wasn't like this, like, oh yeah, like thank you so much for videos, which happens that I'm like, we'll always be grateful for those. Because of the weird world of content creation, you don't see people, you just see numbers, and for like to hear people say, Oh, like I like that. It's like, oh, cool, you like what I do? I don't even like myself, but thank you. Yeah. And and so, where was I going with the content creation? Like those, it's fun because like there's so much exploration and things I didn't know. But then also, like growing up here, there's all like weird things I know about like Hobbitville and yeah, like the random store and sugarhouse that's been there forever and selling furniture, but never would sell furniture that I would like. Um my neighborhood, yeah, it's home sweet home. Yep. Um,

Why Not To Make Creativity A Job

SPEAKER_01 31:50

but then I also do love when it's like, hey, let's do something fun and creative and and and make it that way. But then like taking it back to the question, like I would hate to lose that light. And so I also have that like same sort of like caution of like standing by the edge of the diving board of being like, you want me to jump in? Like, I don't know if I'm gonna like this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't know. And I it like like I said, I think a lot of people figure out how to make that their job and enjoy it. Um, I'm just curious about that because I've never done that. Yeah, and maybe it maybe it only works for certain types of people, maybe it doesn't work for anyone. I I just don't know.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

And it's like, and I know that it's it's not like saying, like, oh, here's the ceiling if I want to do this, like my lives behold. Like, if anything, like sky is the limit and you can go to wherever you want. Like, I have a couple friends, both locally and like not locally, that I mean do content creation full time and like hearing how much like money that is there, especially once like the corporate piece comes in, you're like, this is ridiculous. It's crazy, but it's also like scary to like that on yourself, bet on growth, bet on things that you don't know about, and also to your point of like if TikTok gets shut down again, or if Instagram just decides to not, or Facebook, like it's it puts a lot of reliance on different things. Um, but it is it is nice, like and again, going back to when I like started like being like a quote content creator, it was such a weird world of like and it's also funny too, because like when I started creating content, I knew that there were people because I would hear from like secondary, tertiary people being like, Oh, like people were talking shit. I'm like, I know, but then it's like always like your close peep friends, but then it's all the strangers that are like biggest fan, love this. Like, yeah, like here for it. I'm like interesting dynamic, but okay. It's it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_02 33:27

Do you do you watch the comeback? Did you watch the comeback? Lisa Coudreau, it's HBO. They just told the series finale, it's an incredible show. Um, but at the the end, this episode that aired last week, it's the series finale, and it ends with Lisa Coudre's character who who she's plays this actress who's like constantly ending up in uh trying to have a comeback in her career, you know. And uh she's asked in the show, like, how does it feel that you've spent, you know, your entire life in this industry as an actor just being humiliated by the industry over and over again? And she said this line that I cannot stop thinking about, where she she was like, I don't see it that way. I think you have to agree to be humiliated, and I never signed up for that. So she's like, I I, you know, essentially I'm just out there sharing my creative self. And if people think it's embarrassing, that's not on me. I'm not, I don't feel embarrassed by it. I feel like I'm doing the thing I want to do. And I I've been thinking about that all week long because I'm like, oh yeah, there, you know, I I have in my life had impulses every once in a while to be like, it would be fun to do this creative thing, but I might, it might make me look a little silly, or like my friends might be like, Eli's looks thirsty on the internet, or you know, whatever else.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah, there's traps coming soon.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Yeah, and and just this concept of like, well, no, you actually have to consent to be humiliated. Yeah, and uh having that mindset of like, no, I'm going to do the thing that will feel creatively fulfilling to me. And if people think that that looks embarrassing, that is an issue that they can work on that with themselves, but it has nothing to do with me.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah. And I and like I like people ask, like, well, how do you just like post yourself? That's so wild. I'm like that, like anxiety is so gone at this point. Like, it's just like, yeah, cool, like it's just part of the yeah, cool post. Anyway, moving on, like, go do whatever. Where even like friends that I have will be like, Well, what do you think about this song on this post? Or like, what do you think I should do first on my carousel? I'm like, if like I don't care, if it's good enough, it will be fine. Yeah, or if it's just like a post of like your friends and family, like this isn't the things you should worry about. It's just a way to tell them what to do. Yeah, and also like the thing that always comes to mind actually reminds me I need to really listen to it slash read it, is the creative act by Rick Rubin has been kind of like my guiding light of even before I started creating content, I started, I got introduced to painting because I had that's like this itch for creativity in my life. And so got introduced to painting because I always wanted to, but again, like didn't take that leap until someone literally gifted me a 10 series class. And I was like, okay. And again, like there's these like narratives we tell ourselves, which is one thing. Like, like I would paint, and I'll never forget there's this day, it was like when we first moved from like literally just like having a brush and like blocks to like okay, here's an apple, paint it. And I'm sitting here painting, having all this inner turmoil, and people were walking on the class, just taking a break and looking, and this woman's like, Oh, like that's really good. I'm like, Oh, that's so nice. And in my head, I'm like, you don't know shit, like shut up. Uh-huh. And so I snap a picture of it, go on with my day, and I come back to the picture. I was like, Oh, this actually is pretty good. Like, I actually enjoy this. And so it was fun to be like, oh, I can do something that internally I never thought I was gonna be good at, and told myself I was not good at, and develop this muscle. And then all of a sudden, like it leads to this, all these other creativity, and like people who who will be like, Oh, like I could never do this, like I can't do that. What I mean, using content creation as an example, but it could be a multitude of different things, whether it's you know, going back to school or going and doing something different or changing your career or like whatever your life is calling you to do, that your anxiety is just like, you couldn't do it. Don't do it, don't try, give up before you even start. And I think that's such an important muscle to flex for people, even if it's like one step of something hard or one something step of doing something you haven't done, to realize, like, oh, that doesn't actually matter. And like to know that like the creativity that you do is for yourself primarily. And then if people enjoy it and want to join in, like that's a cherry on top.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

And and by the way, I don't think people tend to want to join in and enjoy it unless you are doing something that you truly, authentically, genuinely want to do. Yes. Uh I uh my view, having operated in creative spaces for a long time and built up audiences, is audiences are really difficult to manipulate. Uh, and a lot of people try and do it, they try and do it through social media. What, what, what will, what will this audience want to hear from me? So that's the thing I should say. And I just think that is so hard. Authenticity comes across when you're doing creative work. And in my experience, if I'm doing the thing that feels fulfilling to me, that's when it does the best. Yeah. If I ever am trying to craft my creative work based on what I think the audience is going to think of it, it doesn't go very well. I actually had this really interesting experience early on writing my humor column for the Tribune. Um, it was, you know, this was a very new audience for me. It was, you know, Tribune readers. And I I had gotten so used to on my website writing to an audience that was very familiar with my voice, knew who I was, knew my family dynamics and so forth. And so I didn't have to explain a lot. Well, suddenly I'm writing in the newspaper to this big audience. Blank slate, no one knows who you like. A lot, a lot of them don't know who I am. Yeah. And and so I'm having to write to the this audience. And early on, I got feedback that I had never really gotten before because it was a new audience. And a lot of people, I in the Tribune, I write a lot of Mormon culture kind of humor. I write stories about growing up LDS and I kind of poke fun at the religion, the culture around the religion mostly. And uh early on, I was getting a lot of anger from people in the church

Authenticity Beats Audience Guessing

SPEAKER_02 38:55

who felt like I was making fun of their religion, which was never my intention. And I got a lot of anger from people outside of the church who felt like I was too much of an apologist because I talk nostalgically about some aspects of the culture. And I had, when I saw these responses coming in, I was like, first of all, how am I getting both of these responses for the same piece of writing? Because they seemed diametrically opposed. Like, am I an apologist or am I an attacker? I don't know. I don't think I'm either. But um, I very quickly had this impulse to be like, you I would sit down to write the next column and I would be thinking about these people in my head. And how can I stop them from having those feelings about my piece of writing? And I had to very early on tell myself, wait a minute, you are not writing to try and elicit a response from these people. You are writing what feels uh authentic and fulfilling for you to write. And people are going to have the response they they have, and that is honestly none of my business. And um, it that was a really uh a very good lesson for me to, I guess, relearn because I think I had learned it earlier on, but in this new context, uh, and I have found that writing that column with that perspective uh has allowed me to be successful in writing this because people now read the column and I think they can feel that I am writing the things in a very sincere way that I want to write and the response be damned.

SPEAKER_01 40:15

Yeah. Cause it's like, and like there's there's a big trend right now in just like social media in general of like the death to the influencer, where like people want someone who's like, let me tell you what's really going on in my life, like, no perfectly curled hair and perfect family and perfect outfits. Like because again, we people can see the inauthistic inauthenticity of it. Yeah, and just people want authentic people these days. And so when people are like, Well, what does social media want me to do? It's like, well, what do you feel like you want to share with social media? And is it interesting enough that people actually care in a way that actually makes sense? And like your voice is the right one to tell it. And like there's so many different things that go it go into that. But I'm curious, like, how so you have this website and blog that I mean, again, your authentic self just literally started as telling your stories of you, your life, your family, of just kind of this close community, starts to get like actual traction, but like jumping to the trib and being a columnist feels like such a like jump from I mean, kind of like your own thing of like just kind of creativity on the internet to like structure institution. Yeah. I mean, talk to me how that came to be and how that like kind of fit in that mold of yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

I I mean it it's been really good for me. It I think I needed to uh be confined in some way uh because I I had gotten so used to my own writing style and writing for the Tribune really made me uh improve, have to improve on that and change the way I was writing because it was a different audience, a different platform, a different uh purpose, you know. Um, and I I couldn't rely on inside jokes on my website. I just, you know, I have a lot of inside jokes, and I I think maybe I was almost getting lazy in my writing in that way. The Tribune, I couldn't do that because it was just like people are gonna read this, they have no idea who the hell I am. Uh and I have to tell a story in this column that will not leave them questioning, like, but who is the, you know, anyway. So the the way it came about was about three and a half, almost four years ago now. Uh Peggy Fletcher Stack, who is she was in my ward when I was like 14 to 18. You grew up in the LPS area. Okay, yeah. Um, Peggy Fletcher Stack, yeah, she was like a a you know, a household name growing up for me. I, you know, we knew who she was. She's a religion reporter for the Tribune, incredible reporter. Uh, she reached out to me uh through Twitter. I had never met her, and she was writing a story, and she needed to talk to a lawyer who had my particular background to just kind of get some background on this story that she was.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

How kind of lies you practice?

SPEAKER_02 42:38

Um, I'm I was a litigator at the time, and uh I teach a First Amendment class at the University of Utah's law school. And so it was a essentially a first amendment, a First Amendment issue. Just curious because but definitely don't want to talk about law or so she reached out to me and she said, Hey, do you think I could meet up with

Salt Lake Tribune Column That Got Serious

SPEAKER_02 42:55

you? I want to ask you some questions about this topic and make sure I'm understanding it correctly. And so I was thrilled to meet her. And we we went and got lunch, we had this, you know, nice lunch. And at the end of the lunch, she said, Hey, by the way, Robert Kirby, who used to be the humor columnist for the Tribune for decades, uh, had retired. And she said, Robert Kirby's, you know, he's retired now. We don't have a humor columnist. And she said, I've I've read a lot of your stuff on your website. Um, and I would be, would you be interested in writing being our new humor columnist? And I was thrilled with that. You know, as I love the tribune. I was like, absolutely, that sounds so interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

And so I would have loved to be a fly on the wall there for her to be like, all right, we need a we need a like a uh uh firsthand uh someone for the story to then be like, how do you want to come work on the humor column?

SPEAKER_02 43:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so it was, I mean, I was of course so flattered by that. And uh, you know, I was a very different humor columnist than Robert Kirby, who, you know, he he's a boomer. I'm a millennial, he's uh uh a straight man who is, to my knowledge, still active LDS. And I am, of course, a gay man out of the church. And they wanted me to come on and write about Mormon culture and Utah culture. Yeah. Yeah. Truly. Uh, I think so. And um, and so I they they brought me on to to write a column to see how it would go. And and so I was like, this could be it, you know, one and done. And I I wrote this column. And and it was uh the first one that I wrote was, and I wonder if you grew up hearing this as well. My grandma one day over dinner, like family dinner, uh said in front of my husband who was like new to the family, she said, Yeah, you know, the pioneers had it hard, but if they could see what we go through today, they wouldn't trade us places. Did you ever grow up hearing that?

SPEAKER_01 44:38

A couple, like not a ton, but I definitely have.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

And and my husband, Skylar, after it was like, What was that? And he and so I explained to him, like, well, there's he ex-bormon is like no, he he did he grew up in Portland, Oregon, atheist family. I mean, no, no exposure to religion truly in his life. So he suddenly he moved to Utah for me and suddenly was, you know, exposed to this religion that he has just found so fascinating, you know, the culture and the religion he finds really fascinating. And so I explained to him, like, oh, you know, it's something I grew up hearing, you know, the this this idea. And he thought that saying was so funny because he's like, there is no way the pioneers wouldn't trade us places if they saw that we had AC, like constant access to food, you know, all this stuff. And so I wrote a column about like funny phrases that I grew up hearing. And and the Tribune was like, we like this, keep writing. And so I kept writing comms for the next few months. I would write these comms that were just basically kind of joke factories where it was just like make it as funny as possible, make it as funny as possible. And honestly, I was getting to a point where I was like, I don't know if this is sustainable. I'm gonna run out of content after a while. And um, I was five or six months into it, and the general general conference was coming up. And my editor at the Tribune, Dave Noyce, asked me to write a column, a humor colum about general conference. And so I was like, oh yeah, I can write a hilarious humor colum about the priesthood session, which you know used to be on Saturday nights, and how all of the boys and their dads in their white shirts and ties go and like overrun every local ice cream place right after it and all these, I can write such a funny story about like all these teenage employees and the Baskin Robbins, you know, whatever. And so I sat down to write this column. And uh I I just kind of described like the experience of going to Priest Session with my dad and my uncles and my cousins and my grandpa. And when I finished the column, uh it ended up being not funny at all. And it was actually almost like a trauma dump, I guess. It was a really, really serious reflection on this practice I used to have with my family that I don't have anymore. And the the way the column ends is, you know, after describing what it looked like as a child and then not doing it anymore as an adult, uh, I end with this anecdote that my years ago, my husband and I were driving to the gay club on a Saturday night, actually. And I was just far enough removed from the church at this point that I didn't even realize it was general conference weekend, but it was general conference weekend. And we're driving down the road, and my husband looked over and he saw in like a cold stone creamery the place is packed with boys and men in white shirts and ties. And he that caught his eye. And he was like, you know, it's 10 o'clock at night on a Saturday, and like, what is happening? And he looked over and he said, What the hell is happening? And I looked over and I immediately clocked. He was like, Oh, it's General Conference weekend, that's priesthood, you know, whatever. And so I explained it to him. I'm like, oh, it's you know, this meeting everybody goes to, the boys and men. And then it's a tradition for a lot of them to go get ice cream after. And um, and and then, you know, I explained that. And then we're just driving in silence, and I was thinking about that. And then Skyler, after a minute, just mumbled under his breath, that actually sounds really nice. And God, this is the story still makes me emotional. And I just turned away and I said, Yeah, it kind of was. And um, you know, and ultimately, this was a story that I wrote for the Tribune that was about uh mourning the loss of a tradition that, like, of course, I can go get ice cream with my dad. That was never the point. But just being like, oh, I don't want that, I don't want this in my life anymore. I don't want the religion anymore. And I kind of mourn that I don't have it still. And that is a really complicated place to be if you've ever, you know, exited the faith. And so I turn in this column and I said, I like emailed them and I was like, hey, you do not have to publish this. This isn't like I'm this one's for me. Yeah. I was like, I was supposed to be a humor columnist. This is not funny at all. Uh, you do not have to publish this, but they read it and they were like, no, we're publishing this. And so they put it in the paper, and that column was really popular. And uh, the reason I tell you this story is that um really changed a lot of things for me because it it helped open me up to realize, like, oh, I can reimagine what a humor columnist is in this very fun way. My stories don't need to be joke factories, or my my columns don't need to be joke factories, they just need to be human stories for my life. And so from then on, that really opened me up to be able to write with more breadth, I think. And so I'm I'm sharing stories and sometimes they're humorous and sometimes they're a lot of jokes, and sometimes they're more reflective and nostalgic and serious. Uh, and that has been true a true joy for me to have this collection of three and a half years of stories in this newspaper, which we recently put into a book that I'm now kind of promoting and and touring with. Um, and it's been a really, I don't even remember what what question you asked me, but it's been a really uh fun experience writing for the Tribune in that way.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Well, and it's like a couple of things is number one, like in the world of media that we are today, we don't want a one-dimensional person. We want something that, oh, I'm gonna open up a column and I'm gonna read what Eli wrote. I'm not gonna read what the call, the humor column is today, which anybody could ghost write, anybody could do whatever, and that is what it is. But it's like we're gonna get a piece of Eli. And if it's gonna be this nostalgic piece, but then also like leaning into kind of your core, I mean, online presence of like there's so many people uh like the joke I always say is like there's three types of people in Utah there's Mormons, ex-Mormons, and Californians, and like it and it's ironic because like the only people that understand both sides are the ex-Mormons, because and there's we don't have to get into all that, but yeah, but it's like there's still parts of it that like it's hard to hate the whole experience. Oh, yeah. And I love that you can kind of shed the part that most people, even people in the church today, don't like of like the corporation side of church. Yeah, and but at the same time, it's like I remember my stepdad would take me to hires every time ever after a priest at session of time. I totally forgot about that until right now, and I was so grateful. And we look around at this weird experience of like, here's a bunch of guys in suits and shirts, white shirts and ties and suits. And if you were your husband going to see, be like, what the hell is going on? And now I kind of want ice cream because I see everybody else having ice cream. And so I think that like, while I I don't think like those that nostalgia is enough to make somebody like, I'm gonna go back to church because it's not that simple, but it it makes us all like it's those experiences that bring Salt Lake together between those those two pieces. Because again, like, and I've never talked as much about like my Mormon experience or even Mormon missions, like a good example of it, as much as I started the podcast, because it is like those those olive branches that we can have within people, and the culture of Utah and the Mormon churches really does what bring that together because it's something that we have all experienced and can even like all laugh at to an extent. Oh, yeah. Because like, and even to like the the way I experienced the general conference one recently is so I live in Marmalay District, and one of my favorite coffee places to go to is District Coffee. And twice a year, I'll always be there on like on a Saturday or Sunday going to get coffee. I'm like, why can't I find a single place to park? Yeah, and there's like people circling the block and like hordes of people. I'm like, that's right, it's conference. But then it's ironic because I'll find a spot and district coffee is obviously like empty as could be and no one's there. But man, that's so fun that you made that. Like, and I like that you made that column your own because anybody could step in and be like, all right, you want me, you know, make them laugh? Yeah, on it. I'll joke factory, here it goes. Yeah, and especially stepping into these two different mediums and platforms and ways that had such different ways of starting and maintaining themselves that you could be successful in both. Like, it's truly is impressive to me that you can have this blog that you made successful that was like kind of like your first stab and like most, I mean, for lack of a better term, like most authentic to yourself because it just started as you. Yeah, then you jump to the trib and that becomes its own thing and then becomes a book. And then you're like, you know, that and I do want to get to this of like opening up your phone and be like, you do I want I do want to be a famous celebrity on TikTok and then be successful at that. Like, like that's impressive. Like any like lightning can strike once one place, but have a strike the same place four times is insane.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

That that's really nice of you to say. Uh it really is. And um, I feel like supremely grateful that I've had success in these areas because they bring me so much joy. You know, the the the writing process is there's so much catharsis for me. Um, but I also really I believe that storytelling is the most effective form of advocacy. And um, I I believe that as a lawyer and I believe that as a creative person. And um this these creative projects over the years have really reinforced that for me over and over and over again. I've had this experience this week, actually. I don't know if you've if you saw this on social media, but it's kind of blowing my mind. But I I shared a story on TikTok on Sunday. Uh, and I was trying to get information from the audience. And what it was was when I was in eighth grade, I had this teacher who used this vocabulary book. It was a very creative, cute vocabulary book that would um tell stories and uh to teach you a big vocabulary word. And I have been wanting to find this book for years, but it was it was not a big book, it wasn't popular or anything, and I cannot remember what it was called, right? And so I tell the story about this teacher and this really fantastic English teacher that I had at South Jordan Middle School in the 90s using this book to teach us uh life life lessons and vocabulary words. And I share this on TikTok and I was just like, if anybody knows what book I'm talking about and you know the title, please let me know. Well, this video just went super viral in a way that I never I the sometimes I'll post something and I'm like, this has the

TikTok Virality And Story Led Persuasion

SPEAKER_02 54:10

possibility of like doing numbers, right? And sometimes I post stuff that I'm like, this won't do numbers, but I I like I want to share this anyway or whatever. This was one that I was just like, I'm just hoping that a few people see this and can tell me maybe one of them will know.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Like you legitimately have a question and using your platform to find an answer, yeah. Then all of a sudden just right.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

And and this this book uh is people identified it very quickly, actually. So a couple of people knew what it was, and so we identified what the book was. It was called uh the weighty word book, if you want to look it up. It's a very cute book. Um, but this well, apparently you can't find it on Amazon anymore. Yeah, so this video went so viral that within a day, um, it was thousands of people were ordering it on Amazon. And I checked yesterday, it is the number one selling book on all of Amazon right now. And it's out of stock. And that on Monday, like the day 24 hours after I published this thing, the publisher found me and emailed me and they were like, Thank you so much. We are like rushing to get to like reprint this book that was is 40 years old. And um, and then I ended up the families of the two authors of this book uh got me in touch with the authors who are like in their 90s now. And so I've gotten the sweetest emails from these people. But all of this to say, if I went on social media and said, everybody should check out the weighty word book, it's fantastic. No one, no one would have checked. Less than a thousand views, no one gives a shit. No one, no one gives a shit. But because I went on social media and I told a fun story about how a book impacted my life, people were so driven by that and fascinated by that, to the point that thousands of people are buying this stupid book. And uh, and so it it's uh it has been reinforced to me over and over and over again that truly storytelling is the most effective form of advocacy. And if you are good at telling your story in a way that gets people to feel the emotion that you you feel about that story, it will prompt them to act without you asking them to do anything. I didn't ask a single person to go buy this book. Um, and you know, that wasn't my intent at all. And yet that's what people are doing. Uh, and so I I don't know, I can't even remember what why I started on this rant, but um it's it's been so gratifying for me uh to find over and over and over again that I can uh persuade or change hearts and minds by just simply telling the story of my life, what I'm up to, what's going on in my life, and not ask anybody to do anything with it.

SPEAKER_00 56:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

And it's like such a unique skill. Like I too am a big believer in storytelling, and like that's the way that people because like storytelling to me is like conveying an experience, an emotion of some sort to a way that's helps could help someone else understand it. And there's like studies of psychology where when you hear a story, you it's like the I mean, you your brain almost experiences it. It's not the same strength of signal, but it's similar. And so that's where um I mean, a lot of I mean, changing movements in the world have have happened and like minds have changed. Even I mean, the one that comes to mind the most is um uh Malcolm Gladwell in his podcast Revisionist History talks about the show in the 90s was the first time there's like an openly gay character. Why can't I think of it? Ellen? No show in the 90s with uh Will and Grace. Will and Grace, okay, and where they talked about like the acceptance of homosexuality before and it was like not the majority, yeah. And then after it was like resounding yes, yeah, and so it's like you tell these stories, these experiences, and people change their minds. And but then it's also wild to think of just like because I've heard stories of where people get like influenced and then things happen like without any sort of intention of it happening, yeah. And I just can't imagine being either this publisher or these like people being like, what the fuck is going on? Like this is a book that we'd written off, isn't like we're not even making copies anymore. We've been sitting on it for decades, and then all of a sudden we have to rethink how we're going to even like print this many to meet the demand. Yeah. So I love the thought that like they come to this meeting and they're like, uh, first off, guys, marketing everybody into like data, what's going on? What is this? And then all of a sudden someone's like, Hey, by the way, there's this guy on TikTok, and he talked about this, and people did a thing, and now here we are.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

It's so it's funny. Um, that this has happened to me, I guess, a couple of times because we before we started recording, you were talking about uh watermelon popsicles. And this was a year ago when I decided to relapsed yet or is it oh yeah. He's my husband is addicted to these the good pop watermelon popsicles. This is not an ad. Uh but so we, you know, a year ago when I started posting on TikTok, I uh I shared the story about my husband my husband's absolute addiction to these things and how he was hiding them in our friend's freezer so that he could have them at their house, you know, whatever. And that video went viral. And this is similar to the weighty word book. Uh, I didn't ask anybody to go try these things. I wasn't advocating for them. It wasn't a brand deal or anything. I didn't even had never even communicated with the company that makes these, but uh, they ended up selling out across the country for weeks and weeks and weeks. And the the brand reached out to me and they were like, you know, this has been the craziest time in our company. It was not a big company, by the way. Good pop has like 50 employees or something in Texas. And uh, and they asked me if I wanted to like do a brand deal with them. And I did, I did a couple of things with them. Um, but I will periodically I'll have brands reach out to me, be like, hey, we saw what you did for Good Pop. Do you want to do an ad for us? And I will regularly tell, because I want to be honest with people, I'll tell them, like, no one is going to care if I tell them to buy your broom. No one will care about that. The only reason why this worked out really well for Goodpop was because it genuinely is something that my husband is addicted to. And I was able to convey that to people without asking them to buy anything. And then they were just like, everybody was like, well, if he loves them that much, I need to go find these, you know. And then suddenly thousands of people across TikTok are posting their own videos of them going and trying the watermelon popsicle for the first time. I didn't ask anybody to do that. And um, and if I did, nobody would do it. You know, again, like that, that wouldn't really, you know, that that just wouldn't happen. Um, but it's, you know, people again want to feel like they you they want to hear a story, and then story prompts people to act in funny ways. Uh, you mentioned the the Will and Grace. I I do a lot of work with Equality Utah, and we have learned time and time again that if we go and stand with signs at the Capitol and yell, it doesn't make any difference in our very conservative state, right? In the supermajority legislature. Is that with Alex Catini? Uh no, Alex works uh for in circle, I think. That's right. Yeah, he's yeah, he's in circle. Um, so Equality Utah, we're, you know, a political advocacy group, essentially. And um, but we have found it is very, very effective for us to go sit down with lawmakers who are, you know, have disagreements with us and say, hey, we know we're not gonna agree on everything. We just want you to know who we are and what our stories are. And once you hear our stories, let's talk about whether there's something that we can't agree on. And we have found that to be incredibly effective. I mean, Utah uh is I think the first and only conservative state that bound conversion therapy. And we did it unanimously in the legislature. They, they, every single legislator on the left and right voted for it. And that would have never happened except for the fact that we had very effective advocates sitting down and telling their stories to these people about like, hey, this is what conversion therapy looks like. I'm not here to yell at you, I'm not here to argue with you, I'm here to help you understand because you probably don't have this perspective. And once people heard those stories about conversion therapy, even the most conservative legislators, truly 100% unanimously this passed, even the most conservative legislators were like, oh, we had we need to ban this. And uh if we had, you know, marched and those things are important as well. Marching and protesting, those things are very important. But if

Equality Utah And Changing Laws With Stories

SPEAKER_02 1:02:05

that's all we were doing, we would have never even gotten this bill proposed in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Yeah, there was a there's a something someone said on the podcast to me once, it still sticks with me, and it's with uh Jeanette Padilla, and she was she said, like, nobody listens to angry people. Yeah. And so it's like when and like I try to like not get like too emotional of things that like it bothers me, and like there's a whole other conversation about like being level-headed when you talk about things, and if there's any sort of strong emotions and it's something you need to sort out, but it like it made me realize like, I mean, you can go to someone and yell at them, like, how dare you guys think this, blah, blah, blah but like they're not gonna listen. But it's like, hey, like, let me tell you a story. Yeah, let me tell you about like something from my experience, my heart, my like something real, and like that is so much more effective. And I've had so many friends in the past be so like angry about stories and experiences that happen to them and want people to take their side and like go with them and like listen, there's there's a whole different approach that I don't think you're realizing that's gonna be a lot more effective. And there's so much more impact to be done for that, especially like things that matter so much. Like, I mean, all the work uh Equality Utah that I mean Troy has done up until I mean that recently stood stepped down. But it it's amazing to see like also that like that learning process of like, oh, like strategic communication, like it doesn't just telling someone something doesn't matter. Like, so like there was like someone that posts on one of my reels or TikToks, there it was about the store or the story of the tornado in 1998. Yeah, and this this boomer because it was on Facebook. I was a sophomore in high school, I remember it so well. Uh what a time of being like, Well, there can't be a tornado, by the way, there's a tornado. Yeah, and this guy's like he goes, I already know about this, or like this already happened. I was like, Yeah, that's how news, like that's how history works. Yeah, right, yeah, and just it's it's so funny because like even like different stories come from different people in different ways, which is essentially social media, like people be like, Well, someone already does this, like, yeah, but you haven't, or someone with like a different background, context, whatever. Yeah, and so I love that like you can use those stories not just for like TikTok things and books and popsicles, but also to help, I mean, improve the livelihood of like your community itself. And also, I mean, coming back to what we had talked about where you don't want social media to be the primary thing, but to support the things that you also want to do, like your writing. I mean, so talking about the books that you've written and like you you mentioned the kind of like a I mean, the not encyclopedia, but anthology, let's call it, of um your columns that you've written, but but what else have you published and kind of maybe the why behind deciding to think those public?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:30

Yeah, so this is it, this is a big gear for me. Um, the the book that you just referenced is uh all of my columns for the past three and a half years. It's I named the book We're Thankful for the Moisture, uh, which is a nod to one of the phrases that I write about in the book, which is, you know, something that we say here in the desert in in Utah when it rains, we're thankful for the moisture. And another phrase that my husband found so funny when he moved here and he uses it all the time. And um, anyway, so uh we I there are a lot of people who I've heard from over the years who have wanted to read the columns, but they live outside of Utah and they don't want to pay for and subscribe to the Tribune, which is totally reasonable uh because it's you know it's a Utah paper. And um, and so we decided, you know, like there's a an appetite for people to have these. Why don't we just compile them all in a book? We can organize them and and whatever and put them in a book together, and um, then people can just find them all in one place. And so that uh that book came out in February. That was my first book, actually, that I've ever published. Congrats. It's huge. I yeah, thank you so

Books, A Quilting Novel, And Utah Humor

SPEAKER_02 1:05:30

much. And um, and then I have my first novel is coming out on September 8th. Uh, and it is it's very different for me. I've never done this kind of writing before. I I've only ever done kind of personal essays and you know, storytelling, personal storytelling. Um, but this is a fiction novel, and it's about a uh dysfunctional group of elderly quilters who are preparing for a competition against their bitter rivals. And it takes place in Utah, and it's inspired loosely by my my mother and her. Very competitive quilting group that she's been in for like 40 years. And um I wrote Utah coded. It's a it's so Utah coded. And it's not more not really Mormon coded. The book is not religious at all, but um it's it very much feels present in Utah, I think. And uh the reason why I wrote it was a few years ago, uh Skyler, my husband, and I were at dinner with my parents, and my mom suddenly in the middle of dinner said, There is so much drama going on in the quilting community right now. And uh a sentence you'd never you'd hear. And we looked at her, and and she said, Especially the Australians. And we look at her and we're like, What? You know, my 70-something-year-old mother, and we're like, What is what's going on in the quilting? So for the next two hours, she dished on like all of the drama that's happening, and this this happened at this competition, you know, whatever else. And uh, when we left dinner, Skylar said to me, You have to write a book about this. And I was like, about the quilting community. And he said, You need to write a fiction novel about a group of quilters in this like high-stakes world because it was so we were like genuinely riveted for like two hours. We're like, this is a world that I was not familiar with. And so I was like, No, I don't, I never wanted to write a fiction novel. And I was like, that's not really what I do. And he was like, you know, we ended up staying up late that night and thinking about like characters and what would the story be. And I was like, I'm not actually gonna write this, but this is kind of a fun exercise. And and I I it just sort of brewed in my brain for several months. And finally, one day I sat down and I was like, I'm gonna try and write like the first chapter. And I wrote it and I gave it to Skylar. I was like, what do you think about this? And he read it, and he said, the first chapter made me laugh and cry, and you need to write the rest of it. And so I I like ended up writing this book that I had never planned to write, and it was a really fascinating experience. And um, and yeah, and so it's called Stitched, and it's coming out September 8th, and I'm really excited about that. Uh, and then we have plans uh next spring to do a sequel book to We're Thankful for the Moisture with more personal essays and columns. Um, and so yeah, I'm like I've suddenly gone from for the first time this sort of internet writing and writing in newspapers and for publications to I guess I'm writing books now. And uh that has been a really fun evolution for me that's recent.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:09

That's so cool. It's fun to see again, like you just keep getting, and I like applaud your ability to just do it. Because like there's so many things that like most people be like, Well, I could never write a book, I could never post on TikTok, I could never start a blog, I could never be a columnist, but you're like, I like writing and I got stuff to talk about, so might as well do it. Try it. I just have I just can't imagine a world where this book is successful and there isn't like a Eugene Levy mockumentary that comes the dream that would be the dream. Yeah. Like that's like when as soon as you said it, I was like, oh, this is gonna be would be a perfect mockumentary of up to the quilting worlds or whatever it is in the drama and suits.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

I mean, it's funny that you you mentioned that because uh Waiting for Guffman is my favorite movie of all time. I have seen it so many times I haven't memorized, and I very much felt like I was channeling the vibe of Waiting for Guffman when I was writing this. Like that that kind of sardonic sense of humor, but the sincerity that's at the base of it anyway. And, you know, you watch those films and they're so silly and the characters are so ridiculous, but they're also you're kind of rooting for them the whole time, and you're like, this is you know, this is funny and fun to laugh at, but also like this the their stories about people who care deeply about a thing that might look a little bit silly on its surface, but caring deeply about a thing is not silly in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:29

Yeah. Well, I mean, the beauty about humor is it's been the way that like people have done with trauma. People have communicated, like, I mean, political movement movements, activism, like whatever. Like, you go, I mean, most of my favorite comedians, they'll be telling us joke, and I'm like, uh huh. And then all of a sudden, like, and here's the right, like, oh yeah, now I understand something that I didn't understand. And like, so I think there's like a lot of overlap in all that, which is fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:53

Um, coming back to some because you said that you met your husband, because he moved here for you, he's from Portland area. Unpack that for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:01

Oh, you'll love this. Okay, so uh I was living in Sugar House in Salt Lake City, uh 2015. I still in the same house I'm still in now. And uh, Skyler was actually at the time living in Madison, Wisconsin. He was work working there, he worked for this big tech company, and he traveled all the time for work. And the reason why we met was he had a one-hour layover in the Salt Lake Airport on a Saturday evening, and he opened his phone to Tinder and we matched on Tinder. And by the time we matched, he was already long gone, you know, and and he was, I found him so funny, so charming. He he's a hilarious person and just like the most likable human being I have ever met in my life. Everybody loves this man, and so it was so easy for me to fall in love with him. But I, you know, found out he didn't even live here, had never been to Utah before, had no reason to ever come back. And I was like, oh, I'm never gonna meet this person. But we we started like calling each other every day because I I thought he was so funny. And I was like, I guess we'll just kind of be like pen pals or you know, phone buddies or whatever. And so we would call each other and chat on the phone every day. And after a month of this, he called me one day and he said, Hey, I have a wedding in Cleveland uh next month, and I need a plus one. Do you want to come to this wedding with me? I never met him, right? And uh, and I was like, No, I am not flying to Cleveland to go on a gay date with a gay man who found me on the internet. Like, I'm not doing that. That sounds dangerous, you know. And but he was like, Oh, come on, it'll

Tinder Layover To A Kirtland Temple Date

SPEAKER_02 1:11:30

be so fun, you know, whatever. And so I ended up, I was like, okay, you know what? You're only young once, right? And so I ended up flying to to Cleveland to go on the state with him. And I got to Cleveland about 12 hours before he did. And I have like a day to kill in Cleveland. I'd never been there before. Yeah. And I was like, I don't know what to do in Cleveland. Well, I found out, and I didn't know this, that Cleveland is right next to Kirtland, Ohio, which is a Mormon pioneer town that we grew up learning about, you know. And and I'm a history nerd. The first time I went to Cleveland was because I was going to Columbus anyway. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and so I was like, you know, I'm a history nerd, and my my ancestors were lived in Kirtland. I was like, I have time to kill. I guess I'll go to Kirtland, you know. So I ended up spending the morning in Kirtland, like doing a tour of the Kirtland temple, had some hilarious experiences there, and you know, whatever. Well, when Skylar came in that night, I met up with him in the hotel lobby, and he's like, What have you been doing all day? You know, and Mormon history. Yeah. And I was like, so there's this place called Kirtland, you know, and I and I kind of dump a lot of information on him. And I can hear how weird this is all sounding. Like I am down telling this man, well, I just spent my day going on religious tours of religious sites of this bizarro religion that you know nothing about. And uh, but it's a big part of who I am, you know, even though I don't go to it anymore, you know, whatever. And um he at the end, I finished saying this and I'm like, oh, he's going to leave me in Cleveland, you know. And and Skylar was like, that sounds fascinating. Would you be willing to go back there tomorrow? And because we had a day to kill the next day. And I was like, if you want to go, I'll take you there. So our first date was a tour of the Kirtland Temple. And it would, that's such a funny, like, I cannot imagine a funnier first gay date for me to have had with my husband. But that was our first date was a morning, Saturday morning tour of the Kirtland Temple. And um, you know, and it and it was it was sort of a good litmus test, I guess, for me, because uh I saw Skylar approach this big piece of my background with genuine curiosity. He wasn't mocking it. Um, he found it amusing, but not in a way that I think anybody would find offensive. You know, he was just sort of like, oh, this is who this is who you are. This is a big part of who you are. And I want to understand that, you know. Um, God, I'm gonna get emotional again. I am I'm a new newish dad. Everything makes me cry now. But uh, and so uh after that experience, he we we started traveling to visit each other and he was able eventually to relocate his job uh and live in in Utah. He was traveling for work all the time anyway. And so they were like, sure, are you home base? Something like that, live live in Salt Lake. And so um he moved to Salt Lake City and then ultimately ended up quitting that job and applying to medical school. And so he went to medical school at the U. We were fortunate that he uh got in there and then did residency as a dermatologist at the U, that he's finishing up next month. Um, and so we've just sort of been here, but that's how I kind of reeled him into this bizarre place that by the way, he loves now. You know, he he feels like Salt Lake City is truly like his home. This is where almost like he would say I that he is feels like he's from two places, and this is one of the two places he's from.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:35

So what a story! Like, because I love that. I mean, the Kirtland first date, like it's either like if I were to go to someone be like, all right, so tell me about the couple whose first dates at Kirtland, Ohio. They'd be like, Well, they just got home from their missions and he was an AP and she did this, and like they love church history, but oh contract not you. Oh my god, that's amazing. Um, I was gonna ask you something, I totally spaced it into right now. Yeah, I can't remember. Actually, no, I was gonna ask you a question that I was thinking about today. Mount Rushmore of gay Utawns, who are you putting on there?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Oh my goodness. Wow, that you really just put me on the spot. I mean, the very the first person that I have to put on that mountain is Troy Williams. Yes. Um, he's he is moved now. He lives in Southern California. I I hope he'll come back one day. Uh, but uh there is no one that I know of in the state of Utah who has done more for uh LGBTQ equality than that man. Uh he is I have you've met him.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:40

Do you know him? No, ironically, I got introduced to him via George when I first started the podcast, and I got his email, and then the email started bouncing. So I was like, I don't know, never mind. But but like all the work that he did.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

I would be happy to connect you with him. He, by the way, is an incredible podcast guest, so he would be fun to talk to. But he, I mean, he is just a remarkable human being. And um I he there are few people outside of my own family that have had a greater impact on my life than Troy. Uh, and so, you know, I'm definitely putting him on there. Uh, Essie Gosnan, who is the new executive director of Equality Utah, she's a phenomenal human being as well. Troy essentially tutored her and prepared her for this role. Uh, and so I'm gonna put her on there as well. Um, I don't know who else I would put on.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:26

Does anybody else come to mind for you? So I was so I've been thinking about it for a couple of days. I don't know why this question came to my head, but I was juggling around it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:33

So I mean, Jim Debacis, who is a real pioneer, he was in in our legislature. I think he was the first openly gay and maybe still to this day, only openly gay legislator that we've had. And he he

Gay Utah Mount Rushmore And Why Salt Lake

SPEAKER_02 1:16:45

is a founder of Equality Utah, but he um really, really did a lot of very important work, especially in the early 2000s in our state.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:53

Yeah. So I'm gonna go a lot more superficial and way less um impactful route. So, well, the first one is because like Tyler Glenn is great and like tearing what I love. Him and Dan Reynolds have done for uh like Love Loud and that old movement. Um, number two is Tan France, because I mean Queer Eye for a Straight Eye and everything he does now is fascinating. Of just like, because like again, there's like this movement over the last 20 years of just like normalizing gayism and like probably the wrong word. Someone's gonna hate me for that. That's okay. Gayism. Um, but like we're going with it. And just like the the national perspective of someone who lives in Utah. I'm always fascinated, like anybody who is like that big of a person or personality, yeah, that still chooses to be here is like who is not from here. Yeah, he just chose to be here. Exactly. Yeah, like it's always so funny to me. Um, number three, I had who was number three that I had David Archaletta. Is he on your list? He was honorable mention. Okay. Um I love him too. I mean, he's a I know I want to talk to him because his story is just like fantastic in general. What was number three? I had all the time in the world to play on this on the law. Anyway, and then the number four was gonna be um wild card, I mean, a grab bag of uh secret lives of Mormon Wives, husbands. Wanabum will probably be in there sooner or later. But who knows? You never know. But no, it's it's fun. Like, and that's one thing, like I love and like the joke I always say is like I identify as a Salt Lake citizen, not a Utah, because the further I get away from Salt Lake, I'm like, not necessarily my people, like visiting my family, wherever, but yeah, and I feel like that's like exponentially more true for the gay population in Utah because we do have this unique counterculture and kind of like home space for people in Utah to again, like where with your husband's like, Oh, it feels like a second home, like a tan France is like, Oh, I'm gonna like set my life up here. Yeah, uh, I think it's interesting and fascinating to see that it is this beacon in what otherwise would be kind of like a dark space.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:48

I I sometimes have people ask me out from outside of Utah, what is it like being a gay married man in Utah? And my my honest answer is I'm actually I'm not sure that I even can answer that question because I don't know that I know what it's like to live in Utah as a gay married man, because like you say, Salt Lake City does I I I know that my life with Skylar in Sugarhouse looks very different than it would look in St. George, Utah. And not to disparage any other place in Utah, but I just know that that is a different experience. And we've never felt anything but perfectly affirmed and supported in our community. Um, but our community in Salt Lake City and in Sugarhouse doesn't look like 99% of the rest of the state. And so I really don't know, but like I I agree with you. I mean, I feel I feel Utah, you know, I grew up here in the valley, not in Salt Lake City, but um Salt Lake City is truly my home. That is where I feel like I truly am from, is this this city that I love with all my heart.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:54

Yeah. I mean, I feel similarly of like I remember when I first moved back to Salt Lake, where it was like like going back to when we first started, where like going to Seattle, where like it just kind of like took church out of the perspective, got me to explore who I am, what I was, what I wanted, and then come back and be faced with it again. Yeah. Like there was like that huge resentment period where even my partner at the time was like, hey, like, uh, I think you need to go to therapy because like you were very irritable. Yeah. And I need you to sort this out for like our sake. And I was like, you're right. Um, but then like once I did, and like even like was kind of had some animosity towards Utah because like there's a whole lot of like history I didn't necessarily love, but like also still loved it at the same time because it's who I am and who I will always be. And even to the point where I mean lived in a van for six months, traveling the country, and like 36 states later, like intentionally trying to see, like, is there somewhere else I want to be? Yeah, walking down the Washington mall and being like, I'm very excited to go back to Salt Lake. That's so cool. That's such a cool story. Yeah, so it's it's it's fun. Like, even like even more broadly, I mean, there's so many people who leave and then they boomerang right back, and it's like, oh, why'd you do that? Like, honestly, it's like there's a lot of really cool places out there, but as far as like where to be and find community and like find your people, and I mean that's excluding the cleanliness of the city, the access the clo the proximity to the airport, the accessibility to the outdoors, and everything else that are like the typical bullet points of why people are here. Yeah, pretty magical. Yeah, it's a it's a terrific place, just as yeah. Um anything else you want to make sure we cover? I don't think so. This has been really fun. Good, and I had a blast. Yeah. Um yeah, I want to wrap with the two questions I always ask everybody at the end of each episode. Numero Uno. Um if you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast to hear more about their story and what they're up to, who would you want to hear from?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:44

Uh I I will pitch Troy Williams at you. Yeah, I think um, you know, his his story is so fascinating because he he has hit political extremes in his life. So he like worked for the Eagle Forum back in the day and was a far right political extremist. I mean, truly. And then he swung really, really hard to the left where he was now getting arrested on the Capitol steps for protesting Republican legislators and and whatever else. And then he sort of found his way into this bridge building space. And his life story is so fascinating. Uh, I would love to hear you kind of hash that out with him.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:23

Don't tell me it's a good time. And then lastly, if people want to uh follow you, find your books, I mean, read all of the things you put out, what's the best place to find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:34

Um, I mean, my website is it just get stranger.com. You can find me there, of course. Uh, I you can find me in the Tribune if you just search my name. I've got uh, you know, lots of work there and I'm continuing to write calms and will for the foreseeable future there. Um, my book that is out right now is called We're Thankful for the Moisture. You can find it wherever you like to get books. Um, King's English is a great local option, but if you like to buy online, it's available everywhere that sells. But if you can go to King's English, but if you can go to King's English, go to King's English or uh benchmark books.

Guest Picks, Where To Follow, Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:23:05

Uh it pretty much all the uh local bookstores in Salt Lake City have it or can order it for you if they're out of stock. Um uh yeah, and then uh and then you can just find me on social media. I'm I'm easy to find. Just Google me. So yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:20

Ew, you're a rock star. I'm so excited to see your book take off, and then it's gonna turn into a movie, and then you're gonna get your own series, and then next thing I don't know, then there's gonna be something that's not even invented yet that you're gonna refresh. So no, fingers crossed, but thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:33

This is I really, really appreciate it. No, likewise, yeah.