S2, E18: Building A Fantasy Tavern In Salt Lake

S2, E18: Thieves Guild Cidery - Max Knudsen & Jordy Kirkman

A fantasy tavern where you can grab a tankard of cider, play a board game you’ve never seen before, and watch a Dungeons and Dragons campaign unfold at the next table sounds like a gimmick until you hear how Thieves Guild Cidery actually got built. We sit down with Max and Jordy to trace the real story behind one of the most distinctive Salt Lake City bars and why going all-in on “too nerdy” was the smartest business decision they made. 

We talk about growing up nerdy before it was cool, finding community through places like Quarters Arcade Bar, and then taking a lockdown-era homebrew habit to a full-scale craft cider operation. They get honest about the non-glam parts: scaling fermentation from small batches to hundreds of gallons, building a business plan that lives in a spiderweb of Excel sheets, getting outside validation from industry experts, and the surreal moment of asking a bank for “lots of money” and hearing yes. 

Then we get into the world-building: DIY props, 3D printing, soldering, custom lighting run by microcontrollers, and why outsourcing the design couldn’t match the vision. Even the bathrooms are part of the experience, from a dark, dramatic, Ministry of Magic-inspired room to the “Paperback Paradise” wall of hilariously altered fantasy covers. We also dig into what’s next, including canned cider drops, getting product into other bars, and Apples and Daggers, their festival that’s aiming for a true adult renn fair vibe in Utah. 

If you love Salt Lake City nightlife, craft cider, themed bars, board game bars, or just stories about building something weird and real, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’d actually wear a cloak to happy hour, and leave a review so more people can find the show.

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Transcript

A Bar Scene That Finally Evolved

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Well, it all started when we were walking downtown one night, right, and we saw that the man in the alley.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

The entirety of it is revolves very specifically around like Skyrim and Lord of the Rings and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Don't be a coward about it. Hard as you can with your vision. A lot of people did say, like, this is so stupid. We were told that uh very frequently.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Just a group of people came in, sat down at a table, and started playing DD. And then at some point you sit down with a bank and you're like, hey, can I have lots of money?

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Growing up before being a nerd is cool.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

That cemented nerdum for me, I think. Just fell in.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

It's always fun asking bartenders where they would go.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

And then some of those people went on to like go compete nationally.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Disruptive when it's not like fun and unique. Because like it's fun, like and a novel thing to do every now and then of being like, oh, someone wants to get married at my bar because it's like a very specific thing, and like the matches with them and what they want to do, or they had like met here, and like that's so special.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

They all wear the medieval garb for the wedding. Yeah, everybody's always dressed up, it's cool.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

But it's not like someone comes here because they're like, Well, we're planning on getting married, we've put out feelers a couple places. Uh tell us about your packaging.

SPEAKER_00 1:06

Like, if you didn't start here for like weddings, if they want a wedding here, they want a wedding here because it's absolutely to each their own.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

But it's also like a like a tip of the cap to being like, oh, like it is a place people want to. Yeah. Like no one's like, hey, can I get married at Lake Effect? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

I wouldn't be surprised if someone did, but it's probably like a 21-year-old and a 50-year-old like divorced dad. I don't know what else would get married in. That's what I think about it, Lake Effect. I like I know that the dude it was one of the high west guys that opened Lake Effect, is that right? I can't remember. I don't know what I'm saying. Lake West got bought. I think you know, they all came in into some money there. And then I think he started Lake Effect, or one of the guys from High West did anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, I'll dig into it and I'll core that.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

That could be totally out. I might be completely right. I just remember High West got sold and then Lake Effect. It was a friend of Spencer's over at TF. Okay. And he was telling me about it. So hopefully he's correct.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

But guys, I'm excited to talk to that because having been someone who's grown up in Salt Lake, it's fun to see how like the bar scene has evolved. Where when I was in college and like let's call it early 2010s, like every bar was kind of a rinse and repeat of itself. There wasn't really any novelty, there wasn't anything special, it's just like where are we going next? Oh, we're going to uh bourbon house.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah, we're gonna go to the other industrial chic like brewery. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

And then now it's fun, like fast forward to today, where it's like you have um oh my gosh, my kind of thing of the name, State Street and Third South. It was cool, and then it turned into like a college bar. Uh like the Japanese like street.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Um Sainara.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Sainara was like way fun. And like it's fun to have all these nuance, but like one thing about let's call like all the other bars in Salt Lake is like I could take a snapshot of people in there and I could place them at any other bar and it would fit in really well. Yeah. But then when I come to Thieves Guild, I look around and I'm like, this is their place. Like if they're not coming here, they're probably not going anywhere else.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah. Uh we actually get a lot of that. We get a lot of first timers, people who have never been out to bars before. And these are not like, you know, just turn 21. These are people like in their 30s that are like, Yeah, we why would we go to any bars? And then we saw your place open up and like just felt like a cool spot that we wanted to be in because we're part of that like culture.

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Yeah. And like that's what I always love. I mean, especially like Salt Lake in general, like I mean, core Salt Lake, almost like that counterculture side is like it's the places like these that thrive because people align with it, like see themselves in it and want to be there. And again, like I've never been here on a weekend and been like, oh, I can sit down because there's so many people. Everyone's here for a long time, they're playing a game of some sort. I mean, whether it be I mean, settlers or ticket, I mean anything. Yeah, and so it's fun to see that. And like the first time, a couple times I came, I was like, oh, this is like a special place. And so it's been fun to see how it's been validated. People get married here, as we talked about, but um, so just generally piqued my interest and wanted to hear about it. Because I mean, just want to start with like, I mean, how you guys ended up in Utah or Salt Lake, and how did you guys end up? I mean, I don't want to put the cart before the horse, but how you guys eventually met and then this idea started to trickle in.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

I was put here as a kid and I didn't have a choice, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

I'm here against my will. I guess me too. We are you were born and raised, right? Yeah, we were born and raised here in in uh in Salt Lake. Uh Jordy's from up north, some farm town.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

I was yeah, I I grew up like right on the Utah-Idaho border.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Yeah. A surf in the northern kingdom? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

I was born in Salt Lake proper, holiday, Utah, I think, out there. So yeah, and I've been here my whole life. I moved out when I was like 18, 19. I went to New York City for a hot minute and just did some kind of like city hopping for a little while, got into Hawaii for about a year, and then um honestly was just kind of bored and and came back to Utah and realized how much I actually really love it here.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I would imagine you guys fall into a similar camp of me as like being a nerd growing up before being a nerd was cool. Like I was the kid who I would go across the street to my friend's house, who's this like Jewish family, and they had like two gaming computers and a Sega Genesis and a Sega Dreamcast and an N64, and like they're like, Hey, do you want to play Magic the Gathering? I'm like, what is Magic the Gathering? They're like, here's a deck, sit down and shut up. But like curious of like what your intro to like, quote, nerd dumb is or like your specific niche, if any.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I mean, I played Warcraft 1. I played, I played Warcraft 1, Starcraft 1. Um, I yeah, I was a little I was a little uh video game nerd. Uh, but yeah, Starcraft Call-Out, I love it.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

Uh yeah, I it's kind of the same thing. My uh my brothers were kind of nerdy ahead of me. I have two I have some older brothers, and they got me into kind of all the bases. We played the original Diablos and StarCraft, Warcraft, the whole bit. Everything from Blizzard was just like peak, you know, in the 90s and early 2000s. So uh yeah, and then Magic the Gathering, of course, Yu-Gi-Oh! Pokemon. We did all the trading card games, that kind of stuff. And then eventually uh someone introduced me to DD. I don't even remember how that happened, but that was a pretty young start too, probably like third edition, maybe. That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

I didn't play DD till as until I was an adult, maybe like 12 or so years ago.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

I've never played, I've actually never played DD. It's one of those things where I'm waiting for someone to be like, hey, we have a spot. Like, do you want to join? And I'm like, are you guys people I want to spend time with? Yes, cool. I'm in. Because it's not like it means to start having never played is one thing like that I would never do. Yeah. Join, yes, but usually people have like their like their group. Yeah. And I mean that's how it all works, really. And so, but I was the same way. Like, I remember going to my friend's house, and his brother was watching Dragon Ball Z, and I was like, Wait, who's the purple and white one? That's Frieza? Okay. Now why is his hair yellow? Okay. And so they just kill this friend. All right, got it. I'm in. And I I mean grew up in like the heyday of Pokemon, which is still like my like I never let it go. Like, I like never tell people, but I was like, Yeah, well, you do it again. We got it, I'll put in a new cartridge for the next road trip, but we're we're okay, and we'll make it work.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

I remember you'd break out the VCR recorder and then you put your tape in and then you'd record Pokemon before you left for school, so when you got back, you could watch it, right? Yeah, I remember when that was coming out, man. And you're right, that's like it's so funny these days that I think being a nerd is kind of cool. And I think really what it is is that like it's just cool to be genuine. And now sort of like it doesn't matter what you're genuine about, people love that you just love something, yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Uh but yeah, back then it was it was kind of a rough go, you know, telling people you were into Dragon Ball or into like Sailor Moon or something, any of the anime, you know, they're like if you're trying to keep up with everything life throws at you, work, workouts, long runs, rounds of golf, whatever it might be, having the nutrition dialed matters. That's why I use gnarly nutrition from supporting my recovery to fueling performance and helping me feel good no matter what I've got going on. And even better, if they're located right here in Utah. Whether you're in the gym, on the trail, or just trying to get through your day, gnarly has you covered. Check them out through the link in the description to see why they become part of my daily routine. What what are you

Growing Up Nerdy Before It Was Cool

SPEAKER_01 7:55

talking about? Like And you'd get like it'dn't be that embarrassing. You're like, shut up, nerd, shove you in a locker. But like to me, like the come hang out, do whatever. Like, we're yeah, don't mind us. We're just watch if you want to. You need to be quiet or anything. Yeah, yeah. Get hammered.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

We aren't, we're doing this live. Yeah. How many shots do you think we can take before the interview's over? It's one way to find out.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Um, but like, because like my definition of like nerdiness or being a nerd is really being passionate about something, like just like it's about being passionate. Like, I know people who are nerdy about sports, I know people who are nerdy about uh Harry Potter, like Marvel, Disney, like whatever it could be, but it's like this like almost like unashamed obsession with something. Yeah. And I think yeah, and like I think everybody has something, whether they're like open about it or not, that's on them and their therapist that I want to get into. But like for me, it's like interesting going back to the conversation, like, oh, like put the D VHS in, we're gonna record this, or I have to make sure I'm in front of my TV when the next episode of Dragon Ball Z comes on. Whereas now it's like, oh, cool, you just open up Crunchyroll and can you watch a jujitsu Kaisen whenever you want to.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

I don't have to stay up until two in the morning to watch Toonami.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Yeah, like but I also love that people are coming around, and like it's so wild to see people like openly talk about anime. Yeah, and like I mean, Game of Thrones was like the entry drug of like Nerdum for so many people. Yeah, for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

Yeah. Yeah, Game of Thrones, what else? I can't think of any other. I was watching there was an old 90s film called Merlin, and that cemented it. That's pretty good. That should actually I watched it pretty recently. Who's the main actor in that? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Uh what is um he used to do a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

I always get a mistake and I think they're two different actors, and they might be the same one, but who's the dude that plays the scientist in uh Jurassic Park, the original? Oh my god, I can see his face. He's he's like standing out of the the Jeep, you know, and he's looking around. He's the main main dude. Kind of a little older.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Um it's not Jeff Goldblum. I don't I don't remember that guy. I don't I don't think he's in Merlin, is he? Merlin has that yeah, I don't remember the actors' names. They're like a bunch of 90s things.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Yeah, I think I get those two mixed up, but yeah, that that cemented Nerdum for me, I think. Just fell in fell in love with kind of the fantasy world after that.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah. I remember waiting in line for um when the first Lord of the Rings came out. I remember, you know, obviously, like all those things being very, very excited.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Yeah, I remember when Lord of the Rings was coming out. Were they playing a do you know the the single the old Villa? Yes, dude, that's where I first watched Lord of the Rings. And maybe the Harry Potters, too, some of those.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Where I saw the first Harry Potter, yeah, where my friend's dad was like, hey, we have an extra ticket to the opening night of the first Harry Potter. Do you want to come? I was like, Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

Yeah. And the villa was so cool. Single theater, right? Single screen theater. Now it's like a panorama screen, yeah. That was a great spot.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

That was a sad one to lose. Like I remember when it first happened, I was like, I don't like that. I can't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

So how does a giant how does a rug store afford like such a giant place? Are rugs that expensive? Like, I guess everyone needs a good rug really to dad the room together, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:49

I mean, at home or Ikea or Costco have done great for me for past years.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

I mean there we have a rub on the wall. Yeah, it does tie the room together.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Actually, now that I got it, I did the middle of that thing. Yeah, the dude would be happy with the new rug store over there.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

The theater's now a rug store.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

So at what point did your guys' paths cross?

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Yeah, you want to take that?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Oh, yeah, sure. Um, I mean, you were there from even before quarters was opening, helping uh helping open that place, and was uh an employee from right when they opened, and I was one of the first people in line to get in that place. I was so excited that finally a barcade was opening up in Salt Lake City, like, oh, we're we're finally at a real city.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, shout out to Katie and Michael for opening Quarters. That place is incredible. Some of the nicest people you'll ever meet, and like so passionate about what they're doing with people.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

So passionate, so good. And it's nice because like they have really good bartenders, like it's always fun asking bartenders where they would go. And so many, like if you ask a lot of bartenders, like, oh, I go to quarters because they have amazing bartenders. Yeah. And they also have like the event space there that like I've had friends, I mean, host events, people come through for concerts, so it's like fun to have. I mean, again, like the core of like art, like if I'm gonna drink my I'll play an arcade game. Yeah, people drink in front of me, and I'm not gonna have an arcade game? Yeah. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Play some pinball and and drink a beer. That's what more could you ask for? Exactly. But um, yeah, we uh I was I helped help them kind of get started, get that place started. Um by no means like it's not my spot, you know, they just hired me or whatever, but I was in there helping them break down walls and build chairs and tables that eventually fell over and all kinds of stuff, and um and then they were nice Michael was nice enough to teach me to be like a pinball tech. So yeah, I learned to work on those machines. What a unique skill. So cool, it was so much fun, man. Um and then I ran this uh social league for uh Keller Queen. You know that machine down there? It's a massive 10

Quarters Arcade Bar And Finding Community

SPEAKER_02 12:40

player arcade game, and it's only local, you can't play it online or anything, so you've got to go into like a bar or wherever it is. Um and I ran a league for it to the point where they now have like national tournaments. So got a bunch of people together. We had a group at some point that was like 30 people every week coming down.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Yeah, like the 30 or 40 people would all get together and do like a mini little tournament to just play this game.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

Yeah, and then some of those people went on to like go compete nationally, you know, like travel and and all that kind of stuff to play Killer Queen. But um, that's how I met him because you started playing Killer Queen. Yeah, so that's how we met.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Me and some of my friends, we saw that uh arcade cab at um I think PAX one year or the year before. So we were totally aware of it, and then you know, seeing Quarters posting that they had that machine on uh on their socials before they opened, we were like, oh shit, it's on. Like I know where I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 13:26

And that's how you know everybody else is thinking the same.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And why I was waiting in line the minute they were open their doors.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Yeah, Jordi was Jordy was there every weekend and throughout the weekday too.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

I would go work from there a lot. Like uh before they now now even their weekdays, they're like they're quite busy. But like uh, I think in the early days, um, if I got there right when they opened, I could post up on a table and continue my work day, or I'd bring my ink ink drawing and watercolors and just paint and sip a drink and just hang out. Because that was like that was the spot. So everybody, all of our friends would just meet up there eventually, and like I'm just hanging out, working, and if nobody comes, I'll play some games and go home. But if everybody comes and joins, like great.

unknown 14:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Next thing you know, you're there till last call.

SPEAKER_00 14:05

And uh I'd be there like two or three times a week.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Well, I also love like it kind of is like the preamble, let's say, to like this of like where I mean you could say arc uh quarters like barcade is kind of like one of those first niche of like here's like everybody can come play pinball, skee ball, like yeah, put in the classic ones that's like, oh, you want to play killer queen? Like that's a little bit more niche and nuanced, like extremely niche. Exactly. And so like I imagine there wasn't a place before that that you were doing the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Um no, I mean Utah, hell no.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Um there's I mean the only arcade that I can think of that I probably with any consistency went to was the like the nickel cade that's down by Fashion Place Mall. Yeah, you know. Uh and that's because I was like 16 and had nothing else to do.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Exactly. And so it's fun to see how like again, like that same theme of finding these pla these places that open up opportunities for people to experience things that they couldn't before, or like just like didn't cater to that. And so now you're like, oh, quarter's open, like, oh, I can work here, cool. I I'll play a couple games and go home, or if there's people here, then oh, we've got 10 of us, or we're gonna play some Killer Queen, or I mean whatever that might be. And so it's fun to see how that's expanded. But like, I mean, at what point, and I'm curious of which conversation came first of like, hey, I want to open up a bar that's very specific that like we have this idea for, or let's make cider.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Oh, I mean, I think well it all started when we were uh walking downtown one night, right, and we saw that the man in the alley, and we went up and and uh the wizard gave us an orb. Yeah. The orb spoke to us, and that's that's how we got the ideas.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Yeah, the the mysterious stranger, you know, the hooded figure and all that.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Wait, like the wizard, uh like the wizard that's always around.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

He's thinking of the Salt Lake City wizard. No, we just met a wizard in an alley and he gave us an orb and the orb whispers to us, and we do what the orb says.

SPEAKER_02 15:52

Yeah, it was more like a yeah, it was like a prophecy that we were given. Right, yes. Um, we uh just making shit up. It took me a second to go to our side. I do remember an alley and I do remember a stranger that stabbed our friend in a butt. Like, I don't remember them giving us an orb. Stab butt orbit. It required a blood sacrifice. Um, dude, we uh after we became friends or quarters, we really just started hanging out uh just like outside of outside of Killer Queen and outside of work and that kind of stuff. Um and eventually ended up as roommates at one point. I found out that you had been making cider for I don't even know how many years at that point.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Uh how long ago was that? Five years ago? Yeah, we met a while ago. What started that?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I mean, what started the I'm gonna start to make cider

From Homebrew Cider To A Real Plan

SPEAKER_01 16:40

on my own.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Oh, it was um one of my buddies moved to Washington. So uh he he we'd worked together here, uh, was in you know, my friend group, and I would hang out with uh him and his wife, and they eventually sold their place and got a little homestead on uh like Bainbridge Island. Cool. And then he had a bunch of apple trees, and he's like, I think I'm gonna start making cider. And then he did, I'm like, this is pretty cool. And then eventually I would fly up and I would help him press his apples, and we would make a truckload of cider. We go to all the his neighbors' places, we go to abandoned giant apple trees just on like you know state land or whatever, and just harvest them, bring them back, press them, make a few hundred gallons, and that was super fun. And I've been doing that, and then eventually pressing and making cider with my my brothers uh back at my parents' little orchard. And so I've just been doing that for years and years before that you know we even started living together.

SPEAKER_02 17:28

We we lived together, that's when we started homebrewing together, making a bunch of beer, making a bunch of cider, that kind of stuff. Uh was that right during COVID or like right before?

SPEAKER_00 17:39

I don't I think it was I think it was like basically during I think it was right at the beginning is because my lease ended and uh I had to grab a new spot and then uh you know was just a few blocks away from my other place and got a uh a really cheap deal on two bedroom, two bathroom, and then I think your lease ended and it was like, you know, things are sh like shutting down. Yeah. And then we're like, just take our spare spot. Everybody's hanging out at our place playing video games all the time anyway. Like, just take the spot.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

So yeah, your memory gets a little blurry when you get to brew your own alcohol at um it's it's a little hard to remember those days.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

I mean, like that was also a time when during lockdowns and things, and like we weren't growing out, we had our little pod of you know, people that would hang out at our spot then, but we brewed like 400 gallons that year, so yeah, we weren't buying alcohol, we were just brewing cider. We were trying to get really dialed in into brewing uh a bunch of beer styles, and and yeah, we had we had a lot of stuff on draft, and friends would come over and like here's the selection today.

SPEAKER_02 18:31

Yeah, we couldn't get rid of it fast enough, I think.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah, that's insane of just being like, hey, we're nothing else to do, come play some video games, come have some cider, and have a moment here.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

It was a great time.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

It was uh yeah, honestly, very fond of those those memories. Uh and it was yeah. So, you know, from all of that, like after Medicars moved in, started brewing together. Um, we both ended up in a job in tech. Okay. So I was working as like an IT professional for a local comp local place here. You were a software engineer.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah, I've been a software engineer for a long time at that point.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Um and we um we were just yeah, I think we had counted how many gallons it was. It's like 400 gallons or something, and we kind of just looked at each other and we were lamenting about our tech jobs. Uh, and stereotypically, as tech bros do, you know, they're like, well, we're just gonna open our own joint. Yeah, a couple of tech millennial bros.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Two crazy brothers with a one dream, one destination. One mutual hatred of our job. Little stools.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Yeah, we kind of just looked at each other. I think you were the one that asked me, like, do you would you want to do this? And I didn't know at the time if you were serious or not the first time.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, I'm I'm always serious about ridiculous ideas.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah. And it took it the best things to be serious about. Yeah. And uh, you know, I just I had been in the service industry before tech for uh I mean eight years and then quarters for like two years, something like that. And I felt like I had a I took a moment to think about it. I was like, maybe I do have a good grasp at least on what I would like out of a bar. Um and then yeah, a week later I we sat down and I was like, okay, can we like how serious are you? Because Jordy had never Jordi's never worked in the bar industry, I think. No, right? I'm not crazy. Nope, never nor has he ever manufactured cider or any alcohol at this level at a large scale. So yeah, it was kind of a it was a big bet to go from brewing five gallons at a time to 250 to 500 gallons. Yeah. You know, they it when you brew things, it's it doesn't scale linearly. Yeah. You know, you've really got to dial it in and and change it as it goes.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

So yeah, the learning curve on this system, it was intense, but like a lot of a lot of research, and we eventually actually in our apartment we got um a like 40 gallon model of one of these full tanks. Like uh they they make those um with all the exact things. Yeah, actually we make sodas out of it now. Um but we were practicing in that, so I'm like, all right, familiarize my stuff, let's scale our batches up and like get a little better at the very least, you know, a 40-gallon batch, even it's not 250 uh or now 500 gallons, like in the big tank over there, but that still helped, you know.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah, well, it's interesting talking to like Hannah from Hans Kambucha, Marcio at um uh Mountain West, who is also at Shades, and even um at Hopkins, like just hearing their scaling of like, oh, I started like it's most people started like, oh, in their uh dorm in their apartment, in their house or whatever, and then grow. And like that's like the hardest thing because it's like even Hannah talking to like, oh, I had like 20, two, like 20 like two-gallon jars around my apartment, then all of a sudden I have this huge stainless steel vat that I have to do the same thing. And it like again, it doesn't change literally, temperatures change a lot, so you have to deal with all of this, and it's so much more of like a learning curve than like, oh, this isn't just in my kitchen anymore for all my buddies.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

It was a yeah, it was it was a weird moment because you know, you when you say, Okay, well, let's start a business, and you go, Well, how do you do that? You know, like have you ever had to draft a business model before or draft business plans or or Excel? I've got really good at Excel there for a while to the point where I was kind of like enjoying it. Truly nerdy.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

Once you start getting into like the programmatic side of Excel where you have a like because our business plan was fucking so many sheets all interconnected, and so you could you could take one single model that was estimates based on some stuff, mess with that, and that would cascade through a dump bunch of different other sheets um and automatically output uh output like a bunch of cool stuff. Like suddenly that's actually really interesting and fun to like build those little models.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah, I'm pretty sure we could package that and sell that if we wanted to. Just the Excel sheets.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

We'll give you a six pack of cider too. So to help you understand better what we do.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

The cider is very expensive, and then we throw in the the sheets for free.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Yeah, yeah, you do a bunch of that, and then we met with uh Rio over at Scion, and he became like a consultant for us. And that was probably the moment I say this all the time. That was probably the moment where I realized Jordy could probably do this with no experience. He sat down with Rio. Have you met Rio? He is a huge beer enthusiast at a like a chemical level. I mean he's a chemistry nerd. Yeah. And so we sat down over at Fisher's to meet with him to see if he wanted to consult for us and you know, if we he could parse out whether we knew what we were doing

Spreadsheets, Consultants, And The Bank Yes

SPEAKER_02 23:10

or X, Y, and Z. And you know, I told him about my experience in the industry, and then we basically got over to Jordy, and the two of them I sat silent, I think, for like 30 or 45 minutes while the two of you just nerded out on on chemistry behind bridges.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

I'd read a lot, I'd I'd, you know, I think learned a lot at that point, and uh, I think that was one of the first times where I like talking to somebody who was a professional about that stuff who actually like engaged me on my level. Um that was one of the first times it was like actually really fun too.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Yeah, he gave us like a stamp of approval. He's like, you guys, you know what, you know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Maybe you're not complete idiots.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Yeah, it's always a good validation from someone who does it.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yeah. And uh yeah, that's that's like and then at some point you've sit down with a bank and you're like, hey, can I have lots of money? And they're like, yes, and you're like, what? Oh no. What have we done? You're just giving this to me? You're in a dark room with like a what a notary and the head of the bank. Like you haven't even looked at my spreadsheet. And then they turn your life away. Yeah, and now you have a business. Yeah, and then you have to build it.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Yeah, and then you pay taxes and all those fun things in between.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

Oh, I just got to do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

So the cider came first, you have this apartment, you're shelling it out, you're like, hey, listen, we hate our jobs, let's do something more fun. You've got to dial in the process, get some validation. And at what point was it like, hey, like, let's go find a space and how what are we gonna do about this? Like, was the idea from the beginning to make I mean this? Or was it like, or was that yeah, I mean, the answer to the question is yes. But or is it more of like uh oh, we want a place and like, oh, it'd be fun if we did this?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

We I think we always had an idea of what we thought was missing um from Salt Lake in Utah, and then we had an idea like just us being just night creatures, uh, you in the industry, and me just being a person who spends a lot of time at bars, um, of what um what the scene is missing and what we think is is really unique and cool here. Um places to do activities, places that have uh a unique aesthetics, um and those two things fitting together. Um, like that's like yeah, it was we always like we're like uh we should have a crazy fantasy bar so we can play DD there instead of here. Um and that was always kind of the fun idea. Um I think it was a lot of then you know obviously make cider's meads, but then there was a lot of market research after that that was like, okay, there's some validity here of why those things are actually like worth it and why they play so well together. Um in a you know, a fantasy tavern that uh this could be just in a normal bar. You just could come here and play games and whatever, or it could be a brewery. Uh what better place to have like a tankard of cider or mead, right? It is as a good old hearty cheers and it's like this medieval beverage that belongs in like a uh you know a kind of you know fun, uh eccentric kind of place. Yeah, that's fantasy and medieval, you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Yeah, you do your due diligence as as pretend business people uh to see, you know, does the market want it and all that kind of stuff.

Committing To A Full Fantasy Tavern

SPEAKER_02 26:00

And obviously, Utah's a huge nerd market. Like Fan X is one of the biggest growing nerd conventions like in the nation. And then you have like uh a bunch of famous fantasy writers that exist here. Like we we kind of knew that there was a um like a need for it or a want for it, I should say. Yeah um and then yeah, there's a lot of discussion on like how far we were gonna take this. We in our hearts we knew we wanted a fantasy tavern, but we were also like, is that responsible? Like, are people gonna want to be here? Are we gonna isolate a huge group of people by having something so nerdy? And then it's like, no, no, no, you you you bring them all out of their dungeons when you build this kind of a place. Just have them shower first.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

We're okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

We had, I mean, friends who gave us like as we were going back and forth and looking at locations, we looked at locations for a couple years before we eventually um got hooked up to this spot. But um we had uh yeah, Sean from Waterwitch who was uh giving some advice, and also Michael and Katie who are giving some advice. We're asking a lot of questions, like we don't want to screw up. Um and when we're looking at a different location that we thought might be just more manufacturing, and um it was wasn't like in the heart of a cool uh you know downtown adjacent neighborhood or downtown, we're like, okay, should we tone down the the fantasy vibes? Will that alienate just people coming to this as their normal watering hole? Or can we make it crazy enough that it'll be destination? And Ashawn was like, do not be a coward. Don't straight up just call this coward. Yep, yeah. Don't be a coward about it. Um and and yeah, we took his advice. Yeah. But that's for our ability anyway.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

I want to backtrack a little bit because you said something that made me interesting. Because one question I had when I was like I mean setting up and I've been here before is like, how did this get because like it's very you look around and like my ADHD could stare at one wall for an hour and just kind of get entranced by everything on it. And I like what you said earlier when you were talking about quarters where you sit there sometimes, like watercolor. So it sounds like you have like a background in creativity in general. And did that help funnel into like the creation of this place, or did you guys have outside help to get it done?

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Uh no, that was the everything in here is built by us, or some of the the really like nice woodwork is built by our woodworker, but every everything else here is is crafted and built by us.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Yeah, I have a I have a friend up north who did the tables that I was telling you about earlier and stealing the wood out of the post office and that kind of stuff. That's where these banquet tables come from. Thank you, USPS, for your service. Yeah. Please don't text us. Um no, the a lot of the like really nicer woodwork and stuff, the functional stuff is built by uh a gentleman, Zach from Pith Woods um up north.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Or Pith Studio.

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Pith Studio, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Pith Studio. Um but uh all of the like little artifacts, like I said, the skulls up there. Jordi knows how to 3D model and print, and then we sanded them down and painted them and that kind of stuff. So a lot of the like little gadgetry, like this kind of stuff, is all made by us.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

They're essentially all costly props that we handle.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

These are full RGB. We 3D printed all those, and because of my work at like and pinball, I knew how to like solder. Yeah. And so we electrified all of these and put that together.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

So each section is run by a unique microcontroller in the ceiling, flashed

DIY Builds, 3D Printing, And Custom Lights

SPEAKER_00 29:05

with um the the LED driver we want, so we can run effects on different sections of the bar. It's like classic software engineers. Yeah, very engineer-minded, but yeah, the entire lighting system, aside from obviously the overhead lights, is we we hand soldered every piece of it. And also, yeah, I 3D model designed all of it. So you know this the chains, the chains are hollow, the wires go through the chains into the rafters. Um, like yeah, I've I've been 3D sculpting for a long time. Um, but yeah, actually being able to uh apply it to like and do a little engineering place like this was so cool, and I'm still having fun with it.

SPEAKER_01 29:35

Well it's like one thing to be good at one thing, but it's one thing when it's like, hey, all these things that you've done for a while, now apply it to this, and you're like, yeah, well, I got a lot of ideas and opinions, and we're just gonna run it because at the end of the day, no one else can tell me no.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

So we're gonna have some fun. Finding somebody who could actually do a system like this was impossible too, and we tried.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Uh we tried to hire out for a lot of stuff, and it just like it just ends up being well, sometimes it's easier, sometimes it's just more fun to do it yourself. You know, you hire someone else out, like we hired an um uh what is it, interior design company, and just uh, you know, I appreciate their work and everything, but it definitely missed the mark of what they came up with and versus what we wanted. You know, so we construct you know, I I've done a lot of home renovations for my like my family and stuff, and so when we wanted to like construct these pillars or put up the wood or paint and all that kind of stuff, that definitely fell into like a wheelhouse that I was already pretty comfortable with, or like the barrels, like sawing the barrels in half and everything.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yep, yeah, yeah, for the taps and we learned how to restore.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

So we built the tap system ourselves, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Well, like that's the beauty of it. Like it reminds me of when I was talking to the uh the guys that started Baby's Bagels, because like they three of them come together and they're like, oh, we're gonna do this all ourselves. We don't know how to lay brick, we don't know how to do tile, we don't know how to do any of this. But we'll figure it out. May have taken them a lot more time, but like it makes it more special, it makes it feel more authentic. Because again, like if you'd hired that interior designer, it would have gotten done, but it would have felt a little hollow, it wouldn't have felt like it was yours. It probably wouldn't have been great, but like it's just not that kind of same. I mean, there's that pride aspect to it, but also of just like if you want something done well you have to and done right, you have to do it yourself.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

Right. I mean, it's some good suggestions and and and a few a few of them we took. Um, but really to try to describe to um you know a group that uh you know either is maybe maybe you're a contractor or you're uh uh uh interior designer or whatever that does, I don't know, um like industrial chic kind of tap rooms, that kind of stuff. And trying to describe this place to them is quite literally impossible. Um and we can show them some images and they're like, okay, so you want the wood from that? Like, no, no, we want this. It it needs to look like you're in a tavern in Dungeons and Dragons from this official Wizards of the Coast photo. And they're like, I don't can't really parse it because it doesn't like how they do it doesn't make sense. And so, like, that's why I think yeah, it's fun to do a lot of this stuff, and it saved us a lot of money. We couldn't have afforded to have somebody do all this stuff anyway. Um, but yeah, describing this to people at the time was it was impossible.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Even our general contractor, like, until we started painting walls and putting up pillars and things, he's like, I had no idea what the building was gonna be here. No idea. And like the bathrooms, the bathrooms would have been impossible for someone else.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Which bathroom is your favorite bathroom?

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Black bathroom. It's gotta be the dark bathroom. That's my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

So for those who haven't been, describe the dark bathroom and then the other two. Um because no one gave me a preface before I went into the bathroom. And I was like, oh, hello, like to be fair, I'm in, but like looking for like a light switch, and you're like, oh, it's already on.

SPEAKER_02 32:33

It's too dark. So the yeah, the black bathroom was my idea. And we I wanted it to look like uh take inspiration from like the Ministry of Magic from Harry Potter. So it's the black tile, green accent lighting, gold features, fixtures, and that kind of stuff. Um, I wanted it to be dark in there. I think it's kind of sexy.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

It's cool in there. We have a few more uh I think gold lanterns to light up on the on the ceiling, and uh obviously we've we've been adding more and more mirrors with that, but yeah, that bathroom is is very, very uh dramatic and cool looking right now. I mean the the first one is is my favorite one, the the paperback paradise bathroom.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

It's certainly the most popular.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

Well I sit there and like my problem is like I'm peeing and like I'll I'll be like looking around, be like, oh, I've been done peeing for like 10 minutes, but I see keep chuckling at every single one of these.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

So much quality reading material in there. Yes. The Gotham Sex Dungeon Had to Bait My Cat.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Well, you know, like the pre-smartphone, like where like you'd have like a shampoo body, like, I guess we're gonna find out what's a shampoo right now. Or like like at our like my parents' house growing up in my bathroom there, it would be like just like the linen closet, be like, mm, your turn.

The Bathrooms As World-Building

SPEAKER_01 33:40

And so like there, it's like the same thing. I'm like, we're good.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

I can just put reading material in the back of like your your toilet or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Not anymore.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Maybe it's I feel like that used to be a thing that used to have like a little magic.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Like a reader's digest.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

That was like if you go to your grandma's house, you'll see it. It's there. It's a troubling practice, if you ask me that. The hygiene is disgusting. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

At least put at least like uh put the put put plastic on it like that. Like laminate that.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

That's why Rs are mounted to the wall.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

So that's the black one, and then the unicorn or paperback parad what you call paperback paradise.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Paperback Paradise is uh um the artist who uh actually finds these old, collects old books, old fantasy novels from like gas stations and and uh uh estate sales, and those are mostly completely real books. He's vandalized the text from. I've been following this guy for years, he's super funny, um, does a lot of like funny writing and art and then just does these posters.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Um hear me out. Wallpaper. So yeah, we always wanted to do that.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yeah. Um, I think the thing is uh the middle bathroom was kind of my my baby. The the third bathroom was Max's baby, and when it came to all the other things, I had committed myself to like electrifying our lights, and oh shit, we need taps that work. And uh it in the end, the middle bathroom kind of became the the most neglected one. It is the most unfinished. Of course, the middle bathroom is the most neglected up uh wiring um through those walls.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Potential.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

I I had a vision, but uh yeah, like we ended up having trouble wiring some of those uh those crystals in there and then ran out of time.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Someone wanted to use them as rock climbing. Yeah, and somebody smashed one. Yeah, I don't know if they smashed it or they thought they could climb to the top of the tower or what, but one of them just you know, the whole resin crystal structure just busted off.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Yeah, the structure underneath had been. We will find you. But that one that one needs the most um finishing. Um but yeah, we had so much trouble wiring getting through these uh walls. We should have wired it before we even put the solidifying designs.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Yeah, it went it's it's been so many things. Like I think at first we wanted it to be like a magical mystical cavern. Uh that's kind of what we started with.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

Want to be the crystal caverns from Elden Ring.

SPEAKER_02 35:56

Yeah, absolutely. And then it, I don't know, that type I always when I go in there, it feels like a tower to me.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Yeah, well, especially with the mirror there that looks like a giant window out into somewhere. Now it is like the wizard's tower.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

So yeah. So the long story short of what we need to do is you need to come here and drink enough, you need to go pee three separate times, and you need to go to each bathroom, and then you can understand which one is your favorite.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Yeah, it's funny how many times sometimes, you know, if I need to be working at the door, it doesn't happen very often. But when I do, it's funny. Someone comes out of one bathroom, and then their friends are like standing there, and they don't go back, they don't go in. The friends don't go in, they just point at the next room and they go, go, go, go, go, go, go, yeah, all the time. People get jumped from room to room to room. So yeah, I I this was like a thing that I told Jordy when we when we opened this place. I said, We're not gonna have stinky, boring bathrooms. I knew I didn't want that. I wanted something like nice, something that fit the theme, but then we're like, well, again, let's just take it further. Let's like let's go, you know, balls the wall there.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Yeah, no, I love how it's I mean, and it's so authentically, you guys, right? Like, because you didn't outsource anything, you had these visions for everything, and like the down to the detail of like any corner you look at, down, I mean, even the examples of the bathrooms, make it what is so special. And so then I also love that you guys are kind of going through this like process when you're I mean, have the property, you're like figuring it out, you're talking to people, you're like, are we crazy? Like, is this the really the way they want to? To the point where they're like, Bet on yourself.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Like, if you're like people we trusted told us we were not crazy. A lot of people did say, like, this is so stupid. We were told that uh very frequently. Showed you mom. Poo-poo people don't like them anymore. Yes, yeah. People we trusted and they said, no, this is this is cool as hell, do it.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Yeah. And now you send them a picture on Friday, you're like, hey, man, this place sucks, it's super empty and no one likes to be here.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

Nobody wants to be an ordinary bar.

unknown 37:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

But was there, I mean, there's gotta be some apprehension when you're like, all right, well, it's done, we're gonna open and bring it in. But at what point were you like, oh, we did, like, we kind of called our shot in the aspect of saying, we want to create this space for these people to do these things, and then was there ever a moment where you're like, oh, we did exactly what we wanted to do?

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Yes. Yes, and no. I think that this place is continuing to evolve. Like just the whole you can take the bath the middle bathroom and just extend it out to the rest of the bar. We're uh totally happy with what's happened, but like everything is a working project in here. Like if we just painted the walls.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Um Yeah, we're we're not we're not even close to done. Um and if you if if you wait three months before your visits here, there will always be so much that is different.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

Yeah, but it is but we did do it. I think we spent a because of how much we were in here during construction building these parts, I did have a moment where it's like, cool. You have a soft opening and then you have the public opening and things of that nature. And it that the that moment doesn't happen then. It happens like a month after that. At least it did for me, where I didn't have to like be here one night. When you first start, you're in here open to close, you know, and before open, like I would be in here at like 8 a.m. and then I would like help the bartenders close at 2 a.m. You know, and I do that every day for like a few months. But then the moment of like, oh, we did it is when I can step away for a night. And I have like such an amazing team here that honestly very incredible for picking up all the slack that I probably had opening this

Opening Night Moments That Proved It

SPEAKER_02 39:10

place. Uh they did incredible work like making up for me anyway. But when I was able to step away and not have to close the bar, and they could close the bar, that was the moment where I went, oh, we did it. That that got open like as a business. And then again, when we saw like sort of our first DD group come in here without saying anything, just a group of people came in, sat down at a table and started playing DD, and I was like, Oh, it's happened. Like Jordy, look at a murder bar. It's it's it's like we it's like we imagined. Yeah, that's the it's like little moments like that. This I I don't think it's one big moment, I think it's very much like for us as owners, it's these little tiny moments that remind you that you've done it.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Well, and like also, too, going back to like when you could hire people and staff and trust people, I feel like it's as equally as is the customers come in and feel like they belong. Like I feel like everybody that work here loves being like, I'm gonna put on my mage costume today, or I'm gonna dress like an elf. And I mean, I I can't think of many places that you could go to work as an elf or a mage or a bard or whatever it's gonna be, and them being like, you need to go home right now.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

You probably have to be in Vegas. Yeah, probably, yeah. Yeah, there's like cosplay bars in Vegas. Um, I mean, and I think when before we were open and we were um interviewing and hiring the team, like we had talked about like we don't know how certain aspects of this place will be received. Um if everybody thinks it's cringe as hell that you are you know dress up crazy, then I you know, up to your judgment. Um if people think it's cool shit, like we think, um, then let's let's go. And uh I think everybody's actually really appreciated the the you know the the silliness of the place.

SPEAKER_02 40:42

Yeah, that was like a that was like a sneaky interview question for sussing out who we thought would be cool to work here. Is a lot of people, you know, some people would be like, okay, so what's the uniform gonna be like? And we're like, we're gonna give you some L-fears, we're gonna get we're gonna have mage hats, da da da. And we'd tell them they'd have to wear something like kind of ridiculous, and if they were into it, it was like cool, you probably belong here.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

The bit that we would do is like is like how we the um the wizard in the alley giving us um the orb that speaks to us, and that's how we got all the visions to build the place. Um doing that at deadpan in the interviews to s to sus out uh if who who was like clearly disgusted by the idea, or at a little bit intrigued, and like, how what can I do with this? Like, you know. Yeah. And yeah, or people that were excited. Yeah. It was uh it was definitely a litmus test, and everybody was weird.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

Oh, I was playing Elden Ring until like two in the morning. Good.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

It's not a dex build yet. Are you a dex build? Get out.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

Tell me about your first Magic the Gathering deck. Okay, good.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

What character do you play in DD? What's your class? Yes. Yeah. No, not a it's actually surprising. I don't know. That's it's you do we ask a little few of those questions. It's surprising how few of these people, uh few of the team I should say, um, play DD. Like they've all, I think, experienced it at some point, but the truth is like we've got a collection of people here that that don't really nerd out on a lot of stuff like that. Um, they're just really friendly, incredible people.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Yeah, or or they have the their own little uh you know, interesting fandoms and and nerdums that like that maybe aren't exactly the the three things that we're known for, but are very, very adjacent. Um like that I think that's pretty freaking.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Yeah, it's I think you walk in here and it feels like fantasy tavern, so you you think like the entirety of it is revolves very specifically around like Skyrim and Lord of the Rings and that kind of stuff. And the truth is like this is really a place that uh that fosters people of all interests, you know, everything. Like if people were in here, we get some people who play like Warhammer in here. Um you got a corner of people just painting figurines. Yeah, I mean tonight we have tonight we literally have people coming in to paint figurines. Like we host that. It comes up, I think, like once a month, and this guy comes in and he hosts like 30 people and they just paint figurines right here on the banquet table. It's sick.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Yeah, I mean on New Year's we did an anime rave where it was just absolutely off the rails, and then we you know change all the candles and all the lanterns to like you know, magenta or blue or just crazy colors, and and yeah, that's like you know, obviously that's not fantasy, but it's like nerdy enough that like eh.

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Yeah, I guess it's kind of what I was saying it's like it seems like this is obviously it's a fantasy place, but it I everyone from every nerdum comes in here for sure.

SPEAKER_01 43:22

It's definitely like the bat signal, um like whatever it might be. Yeah, like I almost wore of an of a hat that I got when like the Rickmobile came into town for Rick and Morty, and I got like I so they had like a spin a wheel win something, and I won like a little figurine, but then I saw people walk around with like these Rick and Morty anime hats and just said anime like Hartoon Network. I was like So I go back to the line, I'm like, I will give you it was so fun. And I go and I'm like, Hey, give

Events, Fandoms, And The Weapon Wall

SPEAKER_01 43:50

you twenty bucks for one of the hats. She's like, just take it. Like it's almost worth it. But it like it has its calling in place for every now and then when I when I when I need it. But yeah, it's the same thing of like like It's like the difference between sci-fi and fantasy is just like a little bit of context. Yeah. It's like the same same sort of things of history or versus future.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

Yeah. The names are different, but like the appreciation for the artwork is there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

And so, I mean, I love that you've kind of like you're talking about like this is kind of like a revolving work in progress, which means that you're as neurodivergent as I am of like looking at being bored of something and then changing something and focusing on something else.

SPEAKER_00 44:24

I don't know. And maybe maybe we'll get to that point, but right now we're just building on top of things forever. Like um, I don't think we're getting bored and changing things. Like we look at a space and try and upgrade the hell out of it, and then and then we don't look at that space again until more spaces are upgraded, and then eventually we'll be like, well, that's the least upgraded space that we have in the bar. What can we add? What more can we do?

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Yeah, the next project, I'm I'm we really should get back to the middle bathroom at some point. I know. But it's it's a lot of work for that.

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Well, it's like an RPG, like you're like, okay, I'm gonna raise my attack stat. Oh no, we gotta go work on our defense stat and special attacks.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

I mean, yeah, up your yeah, up your stamina because that boss keeps one-shotting you. Yeah. Uh yeah, the next one is probably the sword ball over there, the equipment weapon you know, one.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yes, we now have all the components and we have a pretty obscene amount of weapons now.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

There's a giant pile of weapons in our uh cellar, in our like backspace or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 45:12

And the collection now is looking so cool. I mean, we have the a full metal replica of the sword of omens from Thundercats. It's like five feet weighs like 40 pounds. Um we also have a uh the full replica of actually Rivers of Blood from Elden Ring. Yep. Um we have a bunch of crazy stuff that uh you know friends and and fans have given to us and we've had gifted to us or some we bought. But yeah, now that weapon wall will be there will be nigh an inch that is you know clear of weapons when we're done with it.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

If it makes sense, I have one request for the weapon wall. Yeah. Is that you get the sling blade of Darrow from Red Rising. Uh very specific, but it's my favorite sci-fi series, actually book series of all time. Oh, it's a very specific weapon. So that's my own. What is it? Do they make it rising? It's kind of like a sit like Sith slash like anyway.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Oh, I think Anthony was telling me about this actually.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Yeah, oh if if you put it there, there'll be a lot of people that's like, is this that? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've got Red Rising. Yeah, I think that I think it totally fed. DC it? Oh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Like my like my so I went on a Mormon mission once upon a time, but my second mission has been converting people to Red Rising. And like, because people come like, oh, do you have a book you recommend? I'm like, and I'm the person who I won't give a recommendation unless I'm willing to put my reputation on the line for it. Yeah. And so I've probably converted, like, not exaggerating, like 15, more than 15, less than 25 people who I'm like, they're like, oh, I saw that you read this. I'm like, I'm gonna start it. And a week later, they're like, cool. So I finished the first book, halfway through the second one. And this I'm like, yes, like even there's a guy I worked with who we were on a work trip and he was like, oh, like we're walking down to New York, and he's like, Well, are you reading anything? I'm like, uh, Red Rising again for the second time. He's like, okay, anyway. And then so then he like slacks me, he's like, Hey, what was that book you were talking about? I just finished the series, I'm like Red Rising. He's like, Okay, cool, I'll start it. Three days later, he's like, I finished the first book. And then uh talk to him a couple weeks later, he's like, I finished, because it's two trilogies, and then the author is working on the seventh one now. It's just gonna be the to wrap it up. And he's like, I finished the first trilogy, and I've already convinced my wife that we need to name our daughter uh one of the characters from it. I was like, He's like, my work here is done.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

I mean I think a bunch of our staff has read it. Uh we have a lot of book nerds on staff.

SPEAKER_02 47:21

I'm pretty sure the book is somewhere back there right now. Again, I think Ranth is reading it.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Yeah, I think we have like three or four different staff members who read Red Rising because they talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Are you guys reading anything right now?

SPEAKER_00 47:31

No.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Um I'm reading honestly, I'm trying to get back into my hobbies before we started this project. So um I'm reading a few rereading a few of my like astronomy books. I like telescop I like astronomy. I have a telescope at home, so I'm just reading a few Stargazers guides and that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

Cool. Oh wait, I am I am reading something. Um, no, um I'm reading something fun. Um it's actually a uh um uh so let's see no my girlfriend's been um getting back into some books. She started she read like one of the books for the book club, that kind of stuff, and it's like, ooh, no, I'm reading again. And um and she has uh like the Kindle app and I have a tablet. And I was like, oh man, it'd be nice to like you know, you know, we obviously work a ton, and so uh finding time whether we're playing video games with uh each other or friends uh outside of work or like you have to dedicate time to you know what you want to do. And I've really been wanting to actually start reading something again. Uh but what I said what I actually got was the Pop Team Epic manga. Oh my god, they have a manga for that? Oh yeah. Um these Jared, when he was in Japan, got me the manga, but it's in Japanese, and I'm like, this is really cool to have. And I guess I could use like an app to like translate it all in real time, that'd be so difficult. Um, but no, then I downloaded that, and so the last few nights have uh before I go to bed, I'm like, alright, Pop Team Epic.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Yeah, I have to I have to admit, I think I've I've actually never read the Lord of the Rings books. I have listened to the first one on audiobook, I haven't gotten to the second two. Um I end up most of my reading is like I said, that astronomy stuff. And then like um I'm really interested in like the history of the world scientifically, so I read a lot of like here's the here's the course of mankind, right? But from a scientific perspective, how evolution worked and you alluded to it, but what did you study in college?

SPEAKER_01 49:13

It sounds like you were like very science focused.

SPEAKER_02 49:15

Um I didn't graduate ever. I did about I was going for physics, um, and I got through about three years or four years, something like that, and then just was like talking to a professor who was like, What do you want to do with this? And I'm like, I don't know, don't I get a sit in like an observatory and look at the stars? He's like, wrong. I want to be an eccentric on the wizard on a mountain with a telescope, and he was like, Absolutely not, you're gonna be 60 hours in front of a computer just crunching numbers. And I was like, That sucks.

SPEAKER_01 49:43

Yeah, yeah. Like, hard pass. I'm out of here, actually. What else? I mean, you mentioned you're playing some games right now. Anything you're playing that's fun or taking up more of your time than you'd like?

SPEAKER_00 49:53

Yeah, we're playing Far Far West, uh, obviously Slay the Spire 2 with uh with a bunch of the staff and uh all of our friend group is obsessed with Slay the Spire 2.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Um Yeah, games you can hop in with three or four friends and just spend two hours and then be done with it.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Yeah, we gotta do it.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

That's the key. Otherwise, you're like playing I mean, like the uh World of Warcraft days, you're like, it's been 18 hours. Alright, I'm gonna go not do this somehow. But alright.

SPEAKER_02 50:19

There was a yeah, there was a point in my life where I had enough time to, you know, a few friends and I got together. This is right after We're at the Lich King. What is that? I don't know. I can't remember what expansion it was. But um we put a guild together and we were playing well enough that we would get uh server first like dungeon bosses, you know, or raid bosses. Uh it was pretty intense for a while.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Which only just scrap feeds the feeds the beast more. Yeah, well we don't have a maid. There's no cue. Why would we stop?

SPEAKER_02 50:45

And then uh yeah. I mean, we play everything, all the all the rest of the triple A stuff, you know, the kings and queens of the fantasy like video game series, Elden Ring, obviously, the souls born games, all that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Cool. And then thinking about I mean, both the cider and the bar, I mean, what's I mean, what's next? Is it gonna be another different themed bar? Is it gonna be like selling the cider other places? I mean, what do you guys have in mind?

SPEAKER_00 51:08

I think the I mean the main thing that's on the immediate trajectory is uh we're still um actually like figuring out equipment for us to buy to upgrade uh production and get us uh uh more capacity and faster. We roll through just in the tap room, we roll through a pretty ridiculous amount of volume every month. Um, and then we started launching cans. And obviously, I think everybody who has followed us knows that we immediately ran out of all of our cans. And then I would do another batch and we'd immediately run out.

SPEAKER_02 51:35

Um I get mad at Jordy all the time because he won't put enough chips in cans.

SPEAKER_00 51:39

It's and it's because I don't want to just keep selling out. It's because I just don't feel like it. Um not because of manufacturing constraints. Uh the uh the immediate thing is to continue to uh uh increase and upgrade that and then get cans at uh our friend's bars around the city.

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Yeah, we get that question a lot, you know, especially the like when are you gonna open the next Thieves Guild? And the truth is the like probably never. Um this business is not really like uh something that you replicate and then drop somewhere else. Like if we drop a second Thieves Guild somewhere in the city or even maybe up north, like why go to that one instead of this one? Yeah, like does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 52:16

Like, yeah, I mean like it's it's like so niche of a thing like to do another one would almost like cannibalize this to an extent. Yeah, but like I think it'd be fun like to do like I mean like a sci-fi bar where you feel like you're walking into like Star Wars Bridge

Scaling Cider Production And Canned Drops

SPEAKER_01 52:30

or something.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

We ever thought we tapped out on on like oh we can there's only so much we can do at this place, and now we are spending less time here. Like we're still working like insane hours here, but if if we have hands off a little more and I had a uh a cider maker doing stuff, like then maybe we could do another concept, but it wouldn't be Thieves Guild. Yeah, yeah. There's only one of this place.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Yeah, the Thieves Guild's future is scaling, it's buying bigger equipment for Jordy so that he can produce more volume, so that we can have the cans and then we can go to the bars and that kind of stuff. That's that's the truth for Thieves Guild.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

And turning our Apples and Daggers fest, outgrowing this entire block area, and then eventually getting the fairgrounds for a proper um a proper adult renn fair.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

Yeah. Speaking of yeah, delusions of grandeur here a little bit. It's like that apples and daggers festival, that's what how we celebrate our birthday. Cool. Um that in my wildest fantasy turns into us like going up to the state fairgrounds where Jobie Block Party just was and be like, cool, now we run a renn fair.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

You just have like a castle tower that you get to stand from the top, you're like, look at all these peasants. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Well, yeah, they're the rent fairs that happen here. They're they're they're fun, obviously, but they're not like out-of-state rent fairs. And so that's why we did that for our birthday. Got the special licensing, so this entire area blocked off with vendors and food and just craziness. We open the bay door so you can just walk in and out with drinks and just see crazy night battles and entertainment and like like a proper rent fair. It should be a little chaotic. You should have uh uh uh you know a cup of mead in your hand and a metal tanker and that kind of stuff. Um and that's that's totally missing from the rent fairs around here. I know occasionally the one of them up north has maybe a mead tent they used to, maybe they don't anymore. But um my feeling is like they're they're cool, they're fun, um, but they do not resemble the crazy big out-of-state rent fairs, and that's what we're trying to replicate here. And if we outgrow this space doing that, then I think then yeah, uh Salt Lake is ready for a real rent fair. Yeah, and that's what yeah, we'd build.

SPEAKER_02 54:19

Absolutely. As far as outside of themes go, yeah, I've got I've got a bunch of projects, but they'll stay in my mind. We're not gonna leak those ones too far ahead.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

When is the apples and daggers? October, our birthday is October 25th. That's when we opened last year.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Yep, I'm putting that in my calendar, blocking off the whole day. The weekend this year it'll be the weekend of October 10th, I think.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Yeah, we're doing it a bit early because we realized.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

Yeah, because the plan is. Yeah, there's just a lot going on in October already uh for us that it's just like wore us out last time. I think I didn't get out of bed for about 48 hours after the last Apple Tackers festival. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yeah, that's yeah, it's a lot of work, and then we didn't put as much uh uh effort into making Halloween special like we had wanted to, because like that close together we were just dead from you know having such an insane like little festival here.

SPEAKER_02 55:12

Yeah, and this is the perfect Halloween bar. There's no better bar in Silas for for Halloween than ours for sure.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

It's like, well, it's like, oh, what do I want to for Halloween? Like, well if we're gonna end up at Thieves Guild, I've got some ideas. Because like sometimes my brain goes a little haywire with Halloween. I'm like, there's a million things I want to do, but I can only do like one, maybe two, three if I'm really crazy and go from there. So, yeah, no, I I agree. Um anything else you guys want to make sure we cover?

SPEAKER_02 55:36

No, dude. I I'm just chilling. Yeah, I'm good with whatever.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

We're uh um well before we wrap, I want to ask you guys the two questions I always ask every guest at the end of each episode. Number one, if you guys could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear more about what they're up to or what they're doing, who would you want to hear from?

SPEAKER_02 55:52

I don't know who you have or haven't had. Um Katie and Michael overcorded, so you talk to them.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

I've there's so many conversations where it's like started and then like two weeks goes by and like one, usually me, doesn't respond to an email. I'm like, oh wait, I was supposed to email someone.

SPEAKER_02 56:10

So that's one I need to pick back up because it's so iconic at this point that that is a true, yeah, that's a true Salt Lake like icon at this point is Cordis Arcade Bar. So I would say, yeah, I'd love to hear from them.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Cool. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

Deal that's also like my it's I'm a little biased because that's like my bar mom and dad. They're the ones that taught me everything that I know about.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

They taught you to walk so you could run here. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

We've got uh we've always had this idea we want someone to like draw a map of what is like the Salt Lake Bar family, because the whole community is still like, even though it's like growing rapidly for sure, it's still very small enough that like we've done the mental math of like, okay, these pieces this person started up here, then they opened this bar. Yeah, there's a family people. Yeah, there's a proper family tree. We want to get like a family

Apples And Daggers And A Real Renn Fair

SPEAKER_02 56:55

tree made in Salt Lake.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

That would be really cool. Because like, even just like the little people, like all the people I've talked to, I'm like, oh wait, so all of you worked at this place, and then you went to High West, you went to Uinta, you started TF, you're like, oh, and then they helped them do this, and they like you're like, it's yeah, this is an art project that you can do, get a hold of me here.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

Uh yes, I would love to have that.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

Our illustrator uh who does all of our cool shit on our merch and and that kind of stuff, and um for our you know, our our lore, uh, they're very, very busy. If you are an illustrator and want to help us with some projects, yep, yeah, reach out. This is official call to action.

SPEAKER_01 57:29

Yes, slide in the DMs, comment below, and we'll get we'll get this map or this genealogy of sorts.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

We have a we have a pretty big list of illustration projects and and page is very, very busy.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

So lastly, if people want to find more information about Thieves Guild, what's coming up, uh Apple and Dagger, what's the best place to find information?

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Uh uh I was gonna say walk in the door, but no, it's our it's our it is our website.

SPEAKER_02 57:53

Yeah, absolutely. Thievesguildsidery.com

Guest Picks, Bar Family Tree, And How To Find Them

SPEAKER_02 57:55

um or at our Instagram at Thieves Guild Cidery.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Instagram's a good spot too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

So come in, website, Instagram, all the above. All the above. Come hang out. It's a good time, especially if you've like had two or three drinks and someone's like, hey, let's go to thieves. You're like, yes, yes, I will.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Yes, have two or three drinks and then don't play risk. Because you will destroy your friendship.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

Get a random game recommendation from uh one of our staff, and they'll give you something that is very silly and then suited for however group size you have.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

We have craft siders and niche board games. We have all kinds of board games that I think people probably have never seen before.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Yeah, and the last thing we want is people flipping tables because it's been four hours of Monopoly or risk and friendships are on the line.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Why are you holding up in Australia?

SPEAKER_02 58:35

That's the strategy.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

We very specifically don't have Monopoly. I think one was donated and uh it was a weird version of Monopoly, and I think it was like Mormon Monopoly or something like that. Like, or some variation of that. And I know that that they probably brought it in and played for friends, and it was very ironic and funny or whatever. I'm like, get the f this the fuck out of my bar. Understandable. Yeah, most of our most of our um game library is like really, really it's either very curated by us, indie games that we have gotten from like going to PAX, Penny Arcade conference uh or uh convention, um games are made to be played at bars, or they're games that were in um people have brought in that are in such demand that we were shocked to see people play them at bars. Um but they're on the shelf.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

I mean, so much of this so many of those games are donated to people. Actually, a lot of the artifacts here are just donated by other people. It's super cool to watch people like that.

SPEAKER_01 59:23

Someone leaves something behind and you're like, do we trash or the wall? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The wall.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

No, usually somebody's like, I made

Game Curation, Donations, And Closing Thoughts

SPEAKER_00 59:30

this for Thieves Guild, and we're like honored. It's so like, yes, this will live on the wall forever, and you can know that you helped, that you made something cool that will live here forever. I think that's so neat.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Yeah, I think it's a bunch of the stuff on our fireplaces like that. We're just donations from people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

So the loot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Yeah, loot. Yeah, bring us loot. Bring us loot. Yeah. We meant the the loot. The insurmountable.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

We have the inventory space. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, Max, Jordani, thank you so much. Love this place. I'm so excited to just I mean, just experience it continually with friends, bring friends from out of town. Like it's always it's always things like this that makes all things special. So thanks for all your work and yeah, keep at it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:07

Oh, you too, man. You're you're doing some cool stuff. So appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:10

It's a weird world. I never thought I would be that white millennial man in his 30s that does a podcast stuff. I'm the I'm the one.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

I became the stereotype. I mean, yeah. Yeah, we didn't know we were gonna do this. Never in my life did I think we were gonna fucking open a cool ass nerd bar, and then here we are.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

I was like do something crazy and weird. Um, like I got burnt out from corporate tech. I'm like, eventually I'm gonna do something insane, right? And but if if you told me this, I would no, I would not have leaded you.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

I tried to get out of the bar industry by going to the tech as like a safe call. Yeah. And then I've like realized how much I hate sitting behind a desk, which is ironic because I sit more behind a desk now than I ever have. But it's your desk. But it's my desk.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

And I really like programming. I really hate corporate tech these days. Like, if I'm going somewhere where the money is good, um, the experience is mind-numbingly bad, and the company is super evil, and so I'm like, fuck this.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

Yep, that's where I'm at right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

We're rambling more and we're gonna wrap up. It's all good.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:06

We'll ramble forever.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Oh shit, don't give me a big thing. Oh shit. Do we need to continue for another and then save that for uh another day of sorts?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:19

No, you can't.