S2, E15: Rosie Card

Once someone working for the LDS church and creating temple dresses became a voice for womens rights. Rosie Card, a Utah creator and writer whose path through Mormonism is about as classic as it gets: BYU, a mission, church work, and even running a temple dress company for nearly a decade. What makes her story hit is how clearly she names the tension so many people feel in Salt Lake City and beyond: we want community and tradition, but we also want women’s rights, LGBTQIA dignity, and room for nuance.

We get into the experiences that start the shift, including seeing real poverty on a mission and realizing “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” collapses when people don’t have boots. Rosie talks about trying to change the LDS Church from within, what it costs to be publicly outspoken, and the scary reality of being doxxed by people using ward tools. We also dig into Mormon feminism, how history gets erased, and why so many women feel like they’re reinventing the wheel alone in Relief Society.

On the other side of faith deconstruction, Rosie describes a bigger kind of freedom: the world opening up when you stop living by a preset life plan. We talk about spirituality after Mormonism, accountability without the old frameworks, and why women’s financial independence matters when marriage and motherhood are treated as the only righteous path.

If this conversation made you nod along, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review. What was the moment that made you stop twisting yourself into knots?

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Transcript

Nuance Beyond Labels

SPEAKER_02 0:00

You can like quilting and gardening and still believe in your own right. They don't have boots. They don't have socks. Like their feet are broken. Like they have so much going against them.

SPEAKER_01 0:12

The pride parade is blocking our route to church. We both look at each other and we're like, you turn, go change, and go join them.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

I don't need to keep twisting myself into knots in order to fit what I feel like the Mormon church wants me to bear. Doxy. Like crazy. I love my husband and I love my kids, but uh if anything happens to my marriage, I just I can use that in any way to help other communities.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yes. And so it's fun to see like how I mean you're a very outspoken, I mean, politically, socially, other things that you believe in, but at the same time, you're like, and look at the quilt I just made, or look at how I repurposed this, or look at my crafts, look at my DIY, look at this pattern I just picked out. And so it's so fun because like there's so many times, like myself included, where I'll like fight that of like, oh, this is what I do like was raised as. I mean, whatever that could be, even if I do enjoy it, because it's almost like shaking my fist at the things that I was raised as.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there's definitely this, I think, uh at least in my internet circles, the joke of like you can like quilting and gardening and still believe in your own rights.

SPEAKER_04 1:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

So crazy. You can actually like care about air quality and what your children are eating and believe that you should be able to vote.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Crazy concept.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

So crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

It's like uh it's like almost like this um trying to. There's a TikTok I saw there was a TikTok I saw recently of like people having a conversation of everything they agreed with until it was like one thing, and they're like, wait, what? And so it's almost like like trad wife ish. You're like, oh yes, I do love to cook, I do love to craft, I do love to DIY. Wait, hold on.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

And I believe anyone should be able to have an abortion when they want.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Yeah. Crazy concepts. Um, which like, I mean, slide tangent is like that's one thing I always think about a lot, especially in like the political landscape that we find ourselves in, of this like ideology of like, I mean, you can't look at every I mean, just using an example, anybody who's LGBTQIA and say, like, but they definitely don't believe in like fiscal economic policy, and then in the same way, saying, like, oh, just because someone wants has a traditional family also doesn't believe that other people should have the right to whatever nuke non quote nuclear family that they want. Totally. And so, like, I always love people that find that nuance and kind of like pick and choose, whereas we're kind of forced into this world of like complete obedience and alignment to one thing you don't get to pick and choose. And that, I mean, especially when you hyperfocus in Utah and in general, it's always an interesting one.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Well, I think we all are pick and choosing, right? It's just the reality of whether or not we're willing to acknowledge that. Um, like I was recently having in the conversation with someone not to like lean heavily on the abortion thing, um, but they were very pro-choy, or I'm sorry, like pro-life, anti-choice, but not organ donors. And I was like, so you believe that I should have to have a baby regardless of what it does to me as a living human being, but that your dead carcass shouldn't be used to save multiple other human lives. Yeah, that one will-that's pick and choosing. Like, we are all doing that. And so it's just, I think, whether or not we're willing to sit back and acknowledge that like no one is straight, like one ideology, like that's just not real. We are nuanced, we are human beings, and it's more just whether or not we're willing to acknowledge it or not.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yeah. No, that's an interesting one because like um oh shit, what was I gonna say about that? Yeah, like it's like if there's one part of thinking that like if I'm having a conversation with someone, I'll usually try to be like, what kind of conversation is it gonna be like? Which is usually kind of like an let's call it like an IQ check for lack of a better term. And like one thing that will like derail me from like interest in talking to someone in general is like if they're very binary in the way they think, good, bad, left, right, up, down. I'm like, ooh, like there is no nuance or spectrum or scale or like in that. And then I'm like, okay, like we're not gonna like of all like the hundred percent of things I want to talk about with anyone, you just cut yourself out of like the 95%. Well, we can go back to weather, we can go back to like news, like that's fine, but we're not gonna go into things like I actually do want to talk about.

SPEAKER_02 4:47

Yeah, it's I mean it's definitely hard to like have honest, um, real conversation if pe if it doesn't feel like people are willing to like address reality.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Yeah. Um, but the reason I wanted to have you on the most is A, so I always ask everybody if I could have someone on the podcast or if they could have someone on the podcast, who would it be? And one of my favorite people, Missy Grice, was said you. Oh and so ever since then, my ADHD has been like, all right, we'll we'll ask her eventually. There's a billion other things we need to do. And then I mean she just kept popping up, and I was like, it was always like these I'd be like watching your stuff and just be like this heavy, like head bobbing on. I'm like, we've got to do this sooner than later. Because like I see your content and I like have enough of a breadcrumb of like generally like what your past and story looks like. Yeah, but I mean I don't ever want to assume what your story is. Yeah, and I always want to hear people's stories, so I want to hear kind of how mean Rosie Card became Rosie Card because there's obviously a lot to it. Even like yesterday you posted well, someone's talking about like how BYU sends people to Jerusalem to do study abroad.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Oh my gosh, like how do they think about the what's her name? Um, like anything Candace Owens.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yes. That's right, yeah, yeah, it was Candace Owens.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Not to give any spotlight. I mean, she doesn't need our spotlight, but Candace Owens any beef, but like her this clip where she was talking about the CIA that apparently they're recruiting directly from BYU Jerusalem as this way, like very pro-Israel kind of thing. And I just was like, ugh, every as a BYU Jerusalem person, like everyone I know comes out of that program being like extremely pro-Palestine.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Like it

Why Rosie Card Is Here

SPEAKER_02 6:30

just is not that the program itself is directing you in that manner, but when you are there living in East Jerusalem, and I can't speak for everyone, right? Like only my experience and people that I've talked to who feel the same way, it's you just you leave that experience feeling like, yeah, I'm pro to Palestine.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

I don't think I've ever had anybody who I know who's spent more or less like let's call it like a significant amount of time in the Middle East, whether that be, I mean, study abroad for three, four months or military or whatever, and have them come back be like, yep, it was everything that they told me and what I thought it was gonna be. They were right. Like it's always who uh yeah, so we uh lots of opinions, lots of thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Um, so I mean that makes sense. But I mean, talk to me a little bit about because I don't even know. Like, are you from Utah, born in Salt Lake? Like, what did how did this all begin? Yeah. If you're trying to keep up with everything life throws at you work, workouts, long runs, rounds of golf, whatever it might be, having your nutrition dialed matters. That's why I use gnarly nutrition from supporting my recovery to fueling performance and helping me feel good no matter what I've got going on. And even better, they're located right here in Utah. Whether you're in the gym, on the trail, or just trying to get through your day, gnarly has you covered. Check them out through the link in the description to see why they've become part of my daily routine.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Yeah, um, I lived in like Cottonwood Heights sandy area till I was about eight. My family moved to New York for my mom's education when I was eight. We came back Manhattan or upstate? Um, just outside of Manhattan. Um, she was going to school in Manhattan. Um, and then we moved back in 2001 to Ninth South right by East High School. Um, so I went to Clayton and East and 07. But I stopped going to East in 05. Um, and I graduated from a uh Utah's electronic high school, which is no longer a thing. For sure, my diploma was made on paint. Um and there was a point in my life where I realized I was lying on like all of my resumes because I was putting like East High School as where I graduated, and I was like, oh wait, I actually didn't graduate from East, but no one cares. Um so um, yeah, that's where kind of my Salt Lake roots were. Um I went to what's now Utah Tech for the beginning

Sponsor Break Gnarly Nutrition

SPEAKER_02 8:56

of my college education, um transferred to BYU, went on a Mormon mission to Arizona, came back, finished out at BYU, and have been here mostly ever since.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Very typical, like I hate to say like typical experience, but it's like No, it's like I'm a very typical Utah Mormon upbringing.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

And I have the most Mormon resume of anyone on this planet. Like I dare anyone to challenge me.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Not wrong. No. Um, but I mean,

Growing Up Utah Mormon

SPEAKER_01 9:25

that is like the foundation or like context of it all. But like I'm always curious of I mean, when did things start going on the shelf? When did like you'd be like, maybe there's some nuance to even that that I didn't even really recognize.

SPEAKER_02 9:38

Like religiously or politically?

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Okay, cool. Um, so raised very conservative Republican.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Like, was that part of like household like normalcy?

SPEAKER_02 9:48

No, my family wasn't um political at all. Like it's that my parents didn't talk about politics at all, uh other than like I would always listen to Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck in the car with my dad.

SPEAKER_04 10:01

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Um and um he had us read my sisters and I, we have all girls, like we had to read Dr. Laura's How to Trait Popular Feed and Husband, something about training, feeding a husband. Dr. Laura's book. Yeah. Um that was part of our upbringing. Um, and like I never voted for Obama. People are always like so shocked by that. I was like, no, I was really a Republican. Like I was in college, and for sure my roommates and I said like racist things, and like that was Again, very typical of Mormon upgrade. Yeah. Um, and then honestly, it was probably when I first had started realizing things um was when I was on my mission in Mesa, Arizona and was exposed to like true American poverty for the first time. Um, and realized like, oh, like this person can't pull themselves up from their whoop straps um because they don't have boots, they don't have socks, like their feet are broken, like they have so much going against them that there's no way that they could, I don't know, like rise above in the way that I was taught everyone was capable of doing. Um, so that was a huge one for me.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Um and then angry too, because like I grew up because I really asked when you graduated from me, because I graduated from East Right. And that's what I reckon.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

I think I DM'd you and I said we went to high school together.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Because I remember your face. I was we didn't know each other, but I knew your face.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

The thing I always love about Instagram conversations is you can always go back. Like there's a guy who he's now a friend of mine from like this uh um kind of like fitness group called the the Salt Lake Project that meets every Wednesday morning at 6 a.m. at the Capitol. Oh, okay. And I was DMing him about something else, and I looked at uh or like he responded to a story, so we're having a conversation on like the podcast account. And I scrolled the top, I was like, Do you remember DMing me about like wanting me to help you promote this

Poverty On The Mission Changes Politics

SPEAKER_01 12:06

thing? He's like, Yeah, yeah, that was a long time ago. Like, don't worry about it. It's so funny. But it's it's like always interesting to see people's experiences, especially like like for me and like my family, like we didn't talk about politics. Yeah, I mean we didn't talk about anything really, like we'd never talk about money, never talked about politics, never talked about anything, but like it was all if if someone were to sit in in that life and then like watch, it'd be like, yeah, like I it of course you guys are conservative, like white Christian family. Like, yeah, of course. If it looks like a dog, it barks like a dog, it's gonna be a dog. But then also, like when I was on my mission, because I was in Washington state, um, and like all the parts that nobody ever goes to, Spanish speaking. Like, that was the first time that I ever was like, like there was this one moment that like still haunts me to this day, more or less. And it was in this place called Longview, Washington. I mean, poverty, more people were on food stamps than weren't, um, and we're knocking on this trailer park, knocking. I could tell this guy's drawn, he's like, yeah, come in. So we're like, yeah, we'll come in. Great! And I've just looked down and there's this like child, couldn't have been older than two years old. Diaper was full, dirty, sitting on a floor of like beer cans and cigarette butts, and just like this look of just like help me. And I mean, being just like I can't like again, I can't help you. Like you can't help yourself, but like there's just like these these moments that you like didn't grow up because like I grew up, like my mom's a pediatrician, my stepdad's also a pediatrician, my dad was a pediatric neuropsychologist. All of us went to like all my siblings went to college, like yeah, we're fine. Like we have boots and straps and a couple extras if we need them. Yeah, and but that was like again, like part of that first part of things of like, oh, this questions a lot of like the paradigm that I thought everything was. Yeah, and it's like pretty heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah, that's interesting that that's your story too, because for me it's also like the same thing going to an into an apartment, young mom, like four little kids that had to been under eight years old, and it's it's the memory of the little kids and their situation, and that also like is my first thing that I think of when I think about like my mission and like what changed me. It's that little family, the little kids and their situation.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

Yeah, I stick like even let's say when did I come home? November 2011. 15 years ago, and it's like still like I can still see like the outside of it, the inside of it, everything.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:20

It's wild. So you come home from your mission. Yeah. Go to Utah Tech, then come up to BYU.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

I assume there's a dating and a marriage in there somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 14:28

Uh not at that point.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Wow, so not as typical of BYU.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

No, I didn't get married until um like 2021. Oh, okay. So until recent.

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Apologies, that's my mistake.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

It's fine. Yeah, so that is my one thing. Yes. I didn't get married until my 30s. Um, but uh honestly, like good. Yeah. Honestly, I'm so grateful because oh man, the per both for me and for the people, the men I probably would have married in my 20s, I'm such a different person that none of us would have been happy had that worked out. Um so yeah, I went to BYU, uh taught at the MTC, worked on the I'm a Mormon campaign for Bonneville Communications, uh, graduated BURU, went to work at the church. Um, you worked there too. Yeah, for a film, a film team that supported the 12 apostles. Um so worked with members of the 12. Um, and while I was there, um this is always such an amazing story. I mean, I shouldn't preface that way because then people be like, that wasn't that amazing. But um the church had a bunch of part-time employees or um just like lower level employees myself. I was an associate producer that were working full-time hours and they didn't want to have to cover our health care because of Obamacare. So they made like a side company and then hired us through that side company, which essentially said you can work like 39 hours a week so we don't have to pay your health care. And there was all this stuff that was going on. So I was like, crap, I need to figure out a way to supplement my income so that I can continue to survive. Um, and I was also like a wedding photographer photographer, videographer on the side. Um, and in that moment, I started a temple dress company. Um, and so I ran a temple dress company for almost 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

And I love just like every time I'm like, oh, so that's how deep it gets into like church culture. It's like noisy. But wait, there's more.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

You have no idea. I was messaging with someone um who I just know through social media, and she lives elsewhere, and she posted about like Brandon Flowers being a Mormon, and I was like, Oh yeah, he's one of ours. And she was like, Are you a Mormon? And I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, am I a Mormon? Not practicing, but yes, very deeply. Um so yeah, I did that. Um, and about a little past halfway into that experience, it started to

Church Job Sparks Temple Dress Business

SPEAKER_02 17:09

get trickier and trickier because my um comfort with the church um started to get more difficult. Um, and so um the manufacturer that I had been with for the whole existence of the company because of COVID and all this stuff, they were like, hey, we were going to retire in a few years, but we're just gonna close shop now because it's too difficult. Um, and it was just kind of the perfect time for me to be like, and I'm also going to close up shop because this is no longer um making sense with how I feel and what I believe. Uh and so I like formally shut it down in the beginning of 2023 and have just been doing my own thing um ever since.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Wild. I mean, and then going through that entire experience where I mean you're spending a lot of, I mean, it was called intimate time with I mean the big 15. Yeah. And like filming them, spending time around them, all while being like, you know, I don't really know how much I want to have this in my life anymore. I mean, were there any like key moments along the way of like, I mean, the shelf cracking or like things going being being put on there that you're like, I don't know how to deal with this anymore? Like because like for me, it was I mean, the mission was one because I was like, oh, like this is not what I thought it was gonna be. Then I came back and went to college at the U. I joined a fraternity because I didn't want because like if you're from Salt Lake, especially like East and you go to the U, yeah, it's like cool, same friend, same as everything, and I didn't want to have that. Yeah, so join a fraternity as a lot of people do, and like I was still very active then, like, didn't drink, didn't party, didn't do anything. But like it was this like mind fuckery for lack of a better term, that was like, oh, all of these people I've been told are terrible people because they're doing it, but they're also like amazing people. Yeah. How do I deal with this? And then that was always a roller coaster, but then it wasn't until like the like 2015, 2016 um California prop what's the prop. Prop 8. Prop. Oh yeah, prop 8, but then also the policy that they released about the October policy.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

Yes, the October. November policy. November policy.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Um then I was like, oh, like I can't even like I mean, I would just drive around like being like trying to do these mental gymnastics in my head and making it make sense, and just like didn't until eventually moved to Seattle after I had gotten married. And like it was nice to be in a place where it's like, hey, like let's just like take this off the table for a minute and just have our own space. Like there was like when anybody ever asks me like what that last moment was, or like the where I draw the line. It was it was one Sunday in June in Seattle, I think it was 2018, 2017. We were gonna go to church, it was like a 20-minute drive, pull out of our parking garage at our apartment downtown, and we go to get on the freeway, and the pride parade is blocking our route to church. And we both look at each other and we're like, Well, you turn, go change, and go join them. And so, and then I like coming back was all sort of experience of like coming back into the bubble after leaving the bubble. But yeah, but it's always so funny now to look back. I mean, especially people who understand kind of like the mental process to like unpack it and and then look at it, and then you get to connect with people because it's such a unique experience.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah, like the death by a thousand different cuts, right? Totally, yeah. I mean, I think when I well, I know when I was working at the church, uh, while I would say I had the beginnings of feminist tendencies, I was all in with the church when I was working there. So um I ran up into like serious issues that were so frustrating to me, but I had like an incredible direct boss, um, was surrounded by some really great people, some wackos, but also mostly great people. Um and so while I was at w working physically at the church, I was all in. And um I think for a lot of years I really felt I felt like I could um I could change the church from within. And I do feel like on certain things I know I had an impact on. Um, and I'm very proud of those things, and I'm proud of the work that I did while I was in the church. Um, and then um, you know, Death by a Thousand Cuts. I I ultimately like where your final moment was the pride parade, my final moment where I was like, I'm gonna let this go, uh, was the Barbie movie, which is the best. I love it. Um, I just realized, um, you know, there's this beautiful monologue right at the very end of the movie, and I realized like I don't need to keep twisting myself into knots in order to fit what I feel like the Mormon church wants me to be, and I don't need to keep twisting the Mormon church into knots to try to make it what I want it to be. Um, and I'm going to let it go. And I really thought that I would like physically leave the Mormon church, but still. Believe what I saw as the doctrine. Um, but that fell apart so quickly. There was a point I have a sister that left the church previous to me that I texted her and I was like, holy crap, it's not true. And she was like, Yeah, it's not. And I was like, Whoa, I never, never in a million years thought I I never saw that coming. But I'm so, I'm so glad that I'm where I'm at. And the I feel really lucky um that my experience in leaving the church has been like pretty much only positive. Um, I think I did a lot of the really uncomfortable hard things while still technically being a member. Um and by the point that I left and announced publicly through the Solik trip that like I'm done. Um I think everyone was kind of like, yeah. We know. We're so glad that we kind of like have this out in the open. And so yeah, I've had nothing but a positive experience, which I think is can be really rare. Um, and I know that a lot of people, it's a really painful, painful experience. And so um I'm grateful and like aware of that specialness of that.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Yeah, I mean that's because I was recording recently

Pride Parade Redirects Faith

SPEAKER_01 23:23

with Tyler Glenn, who I mean, lead singer of Neon Trees, yeah, because like he went through a very public uh breakup with the church where I mean in Neon Trees in the beginning, like I mean, 10-ish years ago, well more than that, or like 14-ish, yeah, it like they were the Mormon band. Yeah. And like he was the front person of it all, even though he was going through his own um faith and sexuality um discoveries through it. Um where I mean it's an interview at the Rolling Stone, and like even it was interesting hearing him talk about it because and which is like a similar theme of I mean, both I mean, for anybody who's like, I mean, heterosexual or not, like you still have this like, oh well, I can still stick around and be part of the change, or like I can help this.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah, I can do I can change from the inside.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

And even from him, he's like, it was easier for me to come out as gay than it was to leave the church. Even with like with my friend friends and family, like they accepted me more as being like, Oh, you're gay, that's so cool, but look, we'll Sunday, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Um, but then you reach that moment where you're like, Oh, I can't change anything, and actually, like, I don't want even like even if you're like culturally like I don't want to be part of that anymore. Okay, well, there's things I could probably still believe, and then you're like, Oh, actually, yeah, no, there's not actually. Yeah, and like for me, it was a pretty hard one. Like, there was a probably like dark like six months where I was going from oh cool, omnipotence, omnis omniscence to finite, it's us, it's me, and like my brain just had to like rebuild and like because I'm someone who's very like introspective and processes a lot. So I just had to like honestly just sit with it all and just let my brain do the work. And then I remember like kind of after it was done, I was like, all right, well, let's go, like, time to move on, type thing. But it was cool too, because like like you had your sister, so I was kind of always like the blackest sheep, like even in like high school, it was like a I mean I was always the kid to be like, I'm 14, oh yeah, mom, you probably want me to be a teacher, yeah. I'll go talk to the bishop. Oh, I'm 16, you want me to be a priest? Okay, I'll go do that. Uh mission similar, and I when my sister left after me. Like, I remember going over to their house one time and there's a coffee machine on the counter. I was like, Is there something you need to tell me here? And I look in their fridge and there's like beer. I was like, Is there really something you need to tell me here? They kind of leave breadcrumbs, and it was fun because like it went from like because I have two older sisters and my mom and my dad's passed away, and so it was always like one to three, like I was always outnumbered. There was multiple um interventions of being like, You need to come back to church. I was like, this is weird. Oh no, but then it was nice once I had her on my team, like, oh, 50-50. Here we go. Who's ready for this? Um But I'm curious because I like that you well, I'm I'm curious in that you had a very public kind of experience as like you were coming to terms with where you sat politically, socially, religiously, and I mean to the point where it's like, oh, here's my article in the triv, like talking about it. I mean, talk let's go back maybe a little bit more to I mean when you started being I mean posting more, started being more of like a personality. I mean, what motivated you to find your voice?

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Um so I had my temple dress company and this was in like 2025 and um sorry, not 2025, 2015, and I was I needed influencers to post about my company because I was doing this kind of like um essentially like um a Kickstarter, but it wasn't an official Kickstarter to like get it going to fund the company. Um, but back then the church was just trying to get people to barely mention that they were Mormon and it was far from anyone being comfortable talking about temple dresses, where that's more of like a norm thing. People, there's like garment influencers now and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 26:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

That wasn't a thing back then. Um, and so I was desperate and no, I couldn't get anyone to post about it, which I understand why. Um, so I literally was like, I have to make myself an influencer. Like I have I have to do this to like get my company out there. Um, and there were things that I cared about. Um, I thought that there were changes that we could see in the church that would be great. And I started talking about them and people responded well to it. And it was really having those conversations that grew my company and also grew like my personal Instagram account. It started to get a little bit um so controversial that I was worried that it was harming my company, so I stopped talking about it on that account and moved it.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

It's like a fine line to ride. Yeah, it was getting tricky. I don't know if I've I don't know if we shouldn't have women in leadership in the church. But also, if you were going on your mission, you're gonna look great in this.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

You're gonna be so comfortable. Um, so I moved those conversations from my business account to my personal account, and that's where I really was able to like start saying whatever I wanted. Um, and you know what we did a lot of really we've done a lot of great fundraising. Um and just it's giving me opportunity to be involved in so many incredible things. So uh while I no

Building Influence And Speaking Freely

SPEAKER_02 28:24

longer run that company um and I don't miss it at all, I'm so grateful for it because it got me to where I am now. Um it helped build my entire life as a single woman. Um and yeah, I'm just I'm deeply grateful for it and what it's done for me. But um yeah, in like 2020, I stopped going to church like everyone else. Um and I started to, you know, just like be like, oh, I'm not. I was trying to like breadcrumb it to people to be like, I'm not participating in the way that you think you might I was in the past. And people would send me TMs and they're like, you know, you give me so much hope. Like knowing that people like you are still in the church are the only reason why I'm still in the church, and I would be like, I don't know how to mention that.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

I'm not. Um so I felt like I was trying to like say it without having to do like a formal post. Um, and I it wasn't understandably, there's so many people, so many things on social media that makes sense that all my followers didn't see the things that I was saying. Um and so I felt like I was like, some things I've got to figure out some way to do this in the way that doesn't feel super creepy or weird. Um, and then I got this opportunity to write a piece for the tribune, and they wanted me to write the the prompt was like hopes for my hopes for Mormon women in the coming year. And I just kept saying to my God it was for the tribune, not the Deseralds. I guess they think of it often, like, I can't BS this. Like, I keep trying to write something that's hopeful, but I can't BS it. And he was like, just say that. And so that's essentially what I wrote. And then I finished with saying, like, I no longer see myself, I'm no longer a participating Mormon. Um, and it was just it was very honest. Um, and it connected deeply with women all across the spectrum, and um, because I think there's a lot of things that we just don't talk about, and we need to. Um, so it was just kind of saying, like, tell me what I'm supposed to believe. Like, because you've told me everything that I'm supposed to believe, but like when there's all these weird things, like what am I supposed to believe? Why won't you why won't you talk about this? Um, so that's why I the trib the trip was like my big moment and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

I mean what a fun little like mic drop moment too. Like, well, I didn't want to do this, but yeah, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 30:57

It was like, well, if we must.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

It's like I always loved those, because I remember doing that too. It's like when I was first like living in Seattle, I was like kind of like starting to drink again, and like I wasn't going to church. I'd be like, post these like ambiguous like story posts, be like, Are you at a bar?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

I'm like, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

But then like you'd always get people to like DMing me as well, like definitely not on the scale that it would for you, but it was like, hey, like I I don't know what I think anymore, and I can tell you're there, can we talk about this? But yeah, yeah, like happy to help, happy to chat. And like that's one thing I love about kind of like post-Mormonism is I mean, I can sit down next to someone, and as soon as I know that we both have that in common, oh my gosh, I'll share like 10 minutes later. I'm like, Yeah, by the way, like you're not my ride or die friend. Like, yeah, like and it's such a unique experience, and but it's also interesting too, because like I like your story because it's again like so so Mormon, yeah, like down to like every granularity possible, but at the same time, that is what gave you this like feminist phoenix moment of like from those ashes you were able to fly, yeah, and you're grateful for it. And even when I mean I was talking with Tyler, I mean we both talked about our missions, and we kind of had this like uh pivot in the conversation of like we're both very grateful for those experiences. And it's like because that was one I always was hard with of like, well, I hated my mission, but I loved my mission, but I hated it, but I loved it.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

And so, like, even looking back, like if I didn't go on my mission, I probably would have gone to school earlier, started with a partied more, probably wouldn't have been as responsible. So it's nice to have this experience where it's like, oh, here's accountability, here's responsibility, here's a schedule, here's how to manage time, here's how to be a leader, here's how to manage other people and 19-year-old kids, which is insane to me at this point. But um, which set such a great foundation, and like the one I always laugh about is because like I was Spanish speaking, and my mom before my mission's like, this is gonna change your life. And I get home and like it hasn't changed my life. It helps me order Mexican food, and in Utah it doesn't matter. There's like cool, where'd you go? Anyway, have a good one. Yeah. Or yeah, like that's that's about it. Yeah. And so it's it's fun to see, even like, and that's like a common thing I have with like a lot of other people is well, again, like not believing, not practicing, not whatever, like it's still like, oh, but there's still good things that came from it, and especially like set the stage for it, because if I didn't have those experiences, then I wouldn't be able to have the experiences I have today. Yeah, so it's it's hard to balance things, and that's a part of like that faith journey, is like because there's this part, or at least I experienced it, yours might be different, just because of the uniqueness of it, was like there's this like anger period where I was just so mad, just so like I couldn't talk about the church or anything without just getting heated, like and we're just like going head to head with like family, friends, whatever. But then now people talking, like, yeah, whatever, like do your thing. Like I don't like like I like there's a quote, I can't remember who I think it was someone on Mormon Stories who said it, but it's like I I hate cancer, I don't hate cancer patients.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Oh my gosh, that's such a great way of putting it.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

And like I'll always go to my mom's house and I'll give her a hug and a kiss on the cheek, and she'll be like, oh my gosh, guess what I learned at church? Like, tell me about it, um. I would love to hear what what matters to you. Yeah, but then we also have a hard boundary of like, Mom, I'm not coming to church.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Um, no matter who's speaking, no matter what you're playing in the organ. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. But I guess like in that experience, did you ever felt like there was this clash of your audiences? Like where there's this one who's like, oh my gosh, she makes double addresses, that's so great. But then there's people who's like, well, actually, I maybe I do need to have rights as a woman. And like where there's almost like this inflection point, or like a point where like one turned on you or one did and like kind of had to like pick your side?

SPEAKER_02 34:25

Um, I I think one of the most difficult things for me when I was really I mean, it was probably like 2018, um, was I was very public, very much sharing all the things. Um and I was angering both sides so deeply. Um, and I think a lot of it was justified. Um now being on the outside, I totally see um what so many of the people who were ex-Mormon or former Mormon were messaging me, like what they were feeling and what they thought about what I was sharing. I a hundred percent see that. Um, and I was angering um the extreme Mormon, like Desnat, whatever groups, uh, because I was saying that the doctrine was this, and they completely disagreed. Or like I I was pissing everyone off. And there definitely was a time where I just kind of stopped um because it was definitely getting it pretty extreme. Like I had um issues with members of my ward getting my personal information from um LDS tools and doxing me, um, sending me harassing text messages. Um, so and I was just like a single person living by myself, so it was terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

Um and completely inappropriate.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Oh, it was so inappropriate. Um, I immediately, you know, went to my bishop and my stake president. Um, and the stake president ultimately said, I know who they are, but I'm not gonna tell you who it is because I'm gonna protect their privacy. And I was like, Bro, what? Bro, what? We're gonna protect their privacy? They're doxing me.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

That's like Epstein List type. Crazy gymnastics.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Crazy, crazy. So uh like it was pretty bad. And um

Doxxing And The Limits Of Safety

SPEAKER_02 36:31

uh I can't remember how we got started off talking about. Oh, just like yeah, I was I was pissing everyone off. Um, and for a lot of good reasons. And there was a lot of really wonderful, such such beautiful support, kindness. Um, and I think one of the reasons why it was so hard for me to ultimately say I'm done, um, because I was a safe person um for people who were outside of the church to connect with their loved ones who were in the church. So I, you know, I used to have a podcast, and I remember one DM from a young man, and he said, Your episode on queer Mormons was the first conversation that I was able to have with my grandma about being gay because I was able to say, Grandma, she owns a temple dress company. Oh, my alarm from my son is going off. Um he was like, Grandma, she owns a temple dress company. She's safe listening, listen to what she has to say. Um, because we know the church has done a very good job of making people very afraid to listen to anyone who's outside of the church. And so, yeah, I mean, I've said that million times. I was safe, and I it was hard for me to kind of like ruin that. I've I was sad about that. Um, but ultimately I had to say, like, I have to do this for myself. Like, I can't, I can't live like this with all this conflicting stuff going on. And so it was just kind of my time, and you know, there's like a new heavenly mother progressive Mormon influencer accounts popping up every day. So I just think like they're taking care of carry those torches, and when you're done, it's okay to put that torch down, and um uh yeah, just is and I do love that there's always kind of like this.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

I mean, even in general in life, it's always fun to see like the cycles of things. Yeah, like I always love like a hotel's a great example of like everything at the hotel is so new to everybody except for the people that work there because people come, people go, people come, people go, people come, people go. And especially with that, we were like, oh my gosh, like I'm this resource for these people, I can't let this go. But then all of a sudden, like enough time goes by, you're like, oh, actually there's someone waiting in the wings that they don't need to know that they were that person. And even I mean, coming back to like the getting married in your 30s thing, like I see people now in my life that are I mean, younger than 30, even at like 29, and they're like, Oh, I'm getting married. I'm like, Wait, are you sure? You're you're a little young, like, do you know who you are yet? Yeah, and like to actually I mean, not just even have that pre like frontal lobe develop, but like to know who you are and know what you want and to go from there, and like even like I see younger people than me, if I mean friends, family, whatever, who are like very, very like Mormon and stick, but I'm like, meh, come come back in ten years, right? We'll see where we're at.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Yeah, and I think that's like it's hopeful, but um for me when it comes to like Mormon feminism, it's so sad. Yeah, because every Mormon feminist thinks that she's the very first, myself included, because we have no history. There are now great groups, and you know, the exponent, they have they're doing work to compile that history and let it be known. But when you are alone in relief society thinking like, that's weird, like I don't like that, you don't know about the exponent.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

You think you were the only person in that room thinking that there's something not right?

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yeah, you're our history is not taught to us, and so it's this really devastating thing where we are constantly reinventing the wheel where there have been women since the 50s and the 60s, and even before, like our Mormon, like OG Mormon women were so political. Um, and we don't know that. And the the efforts that have been made by the church, I just think are so lackluster um in really encouraging that. And even just thinking about like the the way the relief society used to be set up, like it it stood on its own, it didn't go to the men for approval, like it was its own thing, and then it got completely neutered, and now women think that's just the way it's always been, and it's like, no, yeah, it wasn't that way. They they raised their funds, they did what they saw like good with it. Um, and because the church is so good at deciding on what should be taught and then villainizing anything else, um our own history, like the reality of our own history can be seen as evil, yeah. And Satan trying to get in there, and it's just like this is so crazy.

SPEAKER_01 41:17

Yeah. And then it's like you have this red pill moment, you're like, Oh, I didn't know all of this was and like obviously like the churches had to be in defense mode a lot about it recently, which is kind of fun to watch. And then being like, Well, when we say he put his head in a hat, what we actually mean was it's like, go on.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

I mean, it's I just see it on social media all the time. Like, I saw a girl recently say,

Mormon Feminism And Forgotten History

SPEAKER_02 41:39

like, um, someone was sharing something about like the different versions of the first vision, um, which my heart always goes out to Joseph on that one because I've so told so many of the same stories over and over. I'm like, for sure I've changed details. So my heart goes out to him on that one. Um, but I saw a young woman saying, those are literally listed on the church's website, like they are not hiding it. And I was like, sis, you do not know that there were people excommunicated in the 90s for talking about it. And now it's on the church's website. Like, we just don't know our own history, and it's really sad.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Well, and then like it gets bread crumbed along in a way that like they'll like give up, like, for example, like if when you're in a relationship and you're like, hey, like, I actually need to talk to you, I need a little bit more from you. You're here, I need you to get to here. And then, like, little by little they're like, What about here? And you're like, Oh, like, it's because some people like, oh my gosh, there's change, we're doing it, but it's like, oh, it's still gonna be here when reality you need this trajectory to start going up to there. Yeah, and in the same way, they'll be like, how about we give you a half an inch on that garment top?

SPEAKER_02 42:45

I mean, that was literally like the com the the title of my tribune arc article was like Mormon women can expect a quarter or a half an inch of improvement because that's what we got. Yeah, and we're supposed to be like, Yay! Like, no, it's still, and we're not it's not even that didn't even address the things that was the real concern. So totally.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

So you go through faith crisis, you have this public declaration for lack of a better term. Um, I mean, talk about what that looked like then. Because like you still have, I mean, everything that you love to quilt and create and and make yourself, you have this feminist voice. I mean, now that you had shed those layers of or like layers, chains, whatever anybody wants to call it, um, like did you feel like that was very liberating, or was it hard for you to be like, well, what am I now without all of this? Um, and like what motivates you today?

SPEAKER_02 43:37

Um, you know, one of like the best feelings uh after leaving the church was realizing that I can be anything I want to. Um as a Mormon woman, you pretty much know what your life is going to be like. Like I know what how fifty year old Rosie would be serving in the church and my responsibilities I'd have.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Your little Bob.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

have a bomb and I would help do funerals um and I you know my highest opportunity would be like stake relief society president like I I know essentially or probably never because I still would be a feminist and so they probably would never have that opportunity going rogue but like I knew what it would look like and I didn't realize how limiting that was um and stepping away I was able to be like there could be a Rosie in her 70s in Italy drinking wine with people she just met on a tour that day and she's wearing like this cool tank top dress and like it felt like the world just opened up to me. And but then it's kind of scary because I'm like okay so now I need to there's some pressure that like I want to do something more with my life. Not that not that those lives you know that's gonna be the life that my mom is living and that's a beautiful worthwhile life that she's living within the Mormon church. And I don't mean to diminish that in any way but it just my opportunities increased. Yeah and that's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 45:12

There's the glass half full and glass half empty like perspective on that.

Life Opens Up After Leaving

SPEAKER_01 45:30

He's like well I just like have no idea what to do and he's like how exciting yeah and like because there's times where again like you know pretty much like okay cool so I'm gonna go to seminary I'm gonna go on a mission I'm gonna come home I'm gonna go to BYU I'm gonna go to institute I'm gonna get married I'm gonna like have the kids do these things and it's fun now because like in even where I'm at right now like 35 and a half like there's so many people it's like okay so I've got past that like have kids and the kids are growing it's like well I I don't know what I want now. Yeah I don't even know if I'm in a place I even like like it's like kind of this weird not quite midlife crisis but like quarter life or just I mean five eighths crisis whatever number we want to throw in there. Or three eighths I'm better in bath than that. I have it's I have no idea. A point of your life. Yes and where people are like starting to actually be like well who am I what do I actually want? Yeah. And like there is comfort in being like cool I know exact like I can press play on the rest of my life and know what that looks like which is fine. Like there's a lot of people that does really well for knowing what that looks like the control of it all but like I know myself no well enough to know like and I even when I was in it like that didn't really work for me and I needed to have that excitement that trial like my ADHD makes me need to reinvent myself like every other year something to do. And so it's it's it's fun to see people have that experience because again it can either like crush you of being like I don't know what to do or like there's that more adventurous spirit. And so like to see how you're like oh cool like now I can flourish and I can have that I mean seven year old Rosie in Italy and having fun with that and that's something that you can thrive in.

SPEAKER_02 47:02

Yeah I I really like I don't know what it comes to when I bel like I don't know what I believe when it comes to God and all that stuff. I feel like when I when I pulled on the Mormon thread like it was so tightly wound in everything else religious that I feel like when I lost that I lost everything. So I'm always like I don't know what I believe and I spent so much of my life saying I knew exactly what I believe so I don't care now. But I know I like that image of an elderly Rosie I believe in her so deeply um and so if anything she is my God or my higher power and I look to her for guidance and I really like I just believe everything's gonna work out and life has some really shitty parts and I like I've gone through some really shitty things um and that is life. And uh I know that there's gonna be really great things and I don't really know anything else. So but there's a comfort in that to me that like I don't have to it's kooky to think that we know what the future's gonna bring.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

And that's one thing that comes back to me every now and then going back to your dad's best friend Glenn Beck there was a I guess I remember when I was when I was on my mission there was like he did like this show performance of like him going through his like conversion story or whatever. Yes. We're watching it and like his whole thing was the Mormons could answer everything. Yeah I would they I would put them through the ringer they had an answer. But then like my response to that is like just because everyone can give you an answer doesn't make it right doesn't make it right doesn't make it like I mean factual truth like whatever kind of leg you want to put under that one. And like I'm where I'm that's where I'm at too like I mean I was an atheist for a while I probably s call myself some sort of agnostic but it's like it's definitely not what people would like think. There's a lot of hypotheses out there that are pretty abstract.

SPEAKER_03 48:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

But I don't need to know any of the answers to just enjoy and be present in the moment and have fun with friends and be with family and take care of myself and enjoy my own passage of time.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

Yeah and just be a good person. Like it's crazy it actually doesn't need any of that stuff. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Well there's a quote by um oh my gosh what's his name not Talmadge what book did he write?

SPEAKER_03 49:20

McConkie?

SPEAKER_01 49:21

No he's not a Mormon guy.

SPEAKER_03 49:22

C.S. Lewis C.S.

SPEAKER_02 49:24

I knew it I honestly was gonna say C.S. Lewis before McConkie but you said Talmadge I was like okay so we're Mormon.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Yeah no no other way it was C.S. Lewis he talks about how like essentially saying like as soon as religion or Christianity released from a society like everyone's gonna go crazy on each other and everyone's just gonna kill each other and that's how it's gonna all you really say that so I mean so like something alluding to that a lot more here we can cut things out that's the beautiful thing. Um yeah we'll cut that one out I can't find it on the top of my head to be comfortable about it. But like there's also things like even friends have alluded to like well if I was religious I'd be oh yeah I'd be crazy. Like what? Like please expand on that like you need to have a reward or a treat before you can like do anything right like I'm a good person because I believe in being a good person.

SPEAKER_02 50:12

Right now because Sky Daddy's gonna come zapya. Yeah yeah I mean I one thing something that a brother in law of mine said to me like when I was in this kind of like tormented stage um he said one of my favorite things this is not a direct quote but like one of his favorite things about leaving the church was realizing that so many things that he had attributed to like the spirit or God or Jesus or just like elsewhere that it was actually him. And I loved that is the ability to be like oh no like that good stuff that I'm done that's me. Yeah it's it's actually not a ghost whispering in my ear telling me to go reach out to a friend. That's me. And I love that and I just think that it's it's been such a hopeful thing for me.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

It's like the Harry Potter and prisoner of Azkaban of like where Harry's sitting there on the edge he's watching Sirius get eaten by a Dementor he's like no no my dad's gonna show up he's gonna show up right there he's gonna cast the patronas and save him and Ron and or no just Romani because Ron didn't go back in time with them.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

Romani's like what's going on and then all of a sudden she's like no one's coming he's like oh shit it was me and then he runs in and saves it and like in the same way like you keep thinking oh someone else is coming or like oh like it was this and you're like oh it was me all along I just had to realize that yeah and it's also there's accountability to that of like oh the shitty stuff that was me there actually wasn't I don't believe that there was I I was so Mormon that I used to not I had a special symbol I would write in my calendar to represent when I was going to the temple because or when I planned to go to the temple because I believed that if Satan and his minions saw the word temple written in my schedule that hell would be unleashed and it would he would stop me from going. Wow yeah and so like that it there's a level of accountability that I think is lost when in the belief of the atonement is like this sense of like oh I can not own up or I can just kind of like I can repent and it's all gonna be okay. And the church is a great example like their lack of owning up for the racism and all of and the terrible stuff that they've done to the queer community I believe that the idea of their idea of the savior and the atonement is keeping them from being fully accountable. Totally um and I think that happens to a lot of us.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

Yeah like there's a friend of mine who I mean she's been going through a hard time for a while probably at least six or seven years. And it's been like oh I just need my husband to like care about me or like help at all nothing changes. Yeah. Motherhood's crushing her but she keeps waiting for this like divine intervention of like I mean she's gone to therapy fired her therapist because like wasn't working but it's like nothing changes and kind of just keeps expecting that like well I'm gonna keep reading my scriptures and praying and like something will happen. It's like hey oh that just makes me sick.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

And it's like it's it's hard I mean it's hard to watch for a lot of reasons but I mean hopefully they come around eventually but yeah I've learned but I think like especially for women in the church when you were taught to prioritize marriage and child rearing from an early early age like the church openly just said that they lowered the age of girls going on missions hoping that people will get married meet on their missions and get married younger so like there is no debating that that's what they are pushing and that's what they want. And there are so many women and I know this because I've had conversations with thousands of women on social media who just sort of like you know I love my husband I love my kids I don't regret them but uh if anything happens to my marriage I'm screwed. Yeah I am literally screwed because I have no work experience I have no education uh I don't have no real credit I I I have nothing and that is terrifying to know that you have to stay in a marriage regardless of whether or not you're even just happy like happy um because you aren't confident that you can survive on your own because like and to no fault of your own right like they have been taught that that was the righteous godly thing to do and they're screwed.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Yeah and I mean I've had countless friends that you know one of my friends' husband comes home he's like eh I'm kind of done yeah and then they have nothing nothing and they still rely on him because it's like I still need my like child support I still need my alimony while I try to go figure out what the hell I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 54:59

Terrifying terrifying terrifying and I just I don't we don't think about it enough and as a young Mormon woman I am I I like this is something I try to talk about on the internet often and I often get young Mormon women being like you're making this into something it's not it's not that deep like this is you're planning for

Patriarchy And The Cost To Women

SPEAKER_02 55:21

the worst and I'm like I'm begging you to take this seriously because if your husband just decides that he's done he will walk out with a career skill set he might have to pay alimony and child support but he's gonna be fine yeah and and you probably will be okay eventually too but like it's gonna be rough and that is terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 55:47

Yeah I mean even not even saying like okay let's say you guys don't get divorced like he gets hit by a truck dies let's say you didn't have any life insurance even life insurance can only help for so much it's like what's the plan?

SPEAKER_03 56:00

Yeah he gets a disability.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

Yeah you're just gonna well and then that happens a lot too where it's like they get divorced and it's just like frantic like I have to go get married as soon as possible. And then you find yourself in another predicament like it's just this the system that just keeps women out of power. Yeah. And that's where like all of a sudden you have a strong independent woman who don't need no man and can take care of themselves and then looks at men of being like oh hey I don't need you financially physically I just want like I choose you like a a partner that I can emotionally connect with and can will support me in my life and they're like what do you mean like I don't understand it's insane to see it's threatening to them too.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Yeah and I that's what I think like it's the patriarchy um and the church like I see a lot of people say like oh when I had daughters I left the church I'm like when I had a son I was like ooh I can't have him in there. Yeah because there's so much that is just taught by visual that even if I come home at the end of the day at after church and like try to undo any weird teachings that the plumber down the street taught um I you cannot undo the visuals of men leading and women following and I I just think it's so harmful to them too to grow up believing that what they really have to offer of marriage is money. Yeah like that's crushing. Yeah we wonder why men are lonely I'm sorry because they're not engaging in like the richness of relationships and having children and family because they think their responsibility is to work a job.

SPEAKER_01 57:29

Yeah as long as there's a paycheck then why are you complaining?

SPEAKER_02 57:32

Which is something you would already be doing even if you were single like it's not anything extra it's just being a whole pedestaling process of like Mormon men and Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 57:42

Yeah we could go on and on the series about that. Um but I guess on that note like what there's like when there's you've had your issues especially culturally with the church doctrinally with the church I mean what keeps you here I mean it's easier to like leave Utah and go explore somewhere else but what do you what would you say keeps you here?

SPEAKER_02 58:01

Utah is such an easy place to live. Yeah um I've lived in um other states other countries um I love living there and honestly like I would love to live in other places I have built my life in Utah thus far and and it's a beautiful easy place to live and um I love like all of my little communities that I'm involved in um and my husband does not like living in Utah and so at some point we might leave. But for right now like Utah is living here is really nice. But I do worry about like raising my son and he won't be Mormon and what will that experience be like for him and I've had to apologize to a lot of people from like yeah middle school high school college I'm like hey my dad I'm so sorry. Yeah yeah I've sent a number of those texts as well um so yeah I just I don't I don't know we might move maybe Portugal my thing is if like the church if not the church if this if the government starts taking away birth control I'm out that's my like my final thing moving to another country. If they start coming after birth control it is all and they are but like if they sincerely succeed it's all downhill from there in my mind.

SPEAKER_01 59:22

It's weird like because I never considered living in another country until like the last year. And now I'm because like there's actually a time I was probably how would have been a maybe a year ago where I remember texting my sister being like I think I might just go to Canada. Yeah I think I might just go and I'll figure out the rest from there. She's like yeah it's pretty crazy like I have two young kids like obviously can't blah blah blah but then anytime like something happens or like like just like I'm thinking about that decision I'm like if I were there looking at what's happening now

Why Stay In Utah

SPEAKER_01 59:52

would that make me feel better or worse about my decision? Yeah right I think it's only made like ever since then it's always been like yeah I feel like it would have been the right decision then and still is now yeah I mean it's just that question I have this con we have this conversation with a friend often of like do you leave like when it when something in your country starts getting serious enough do you bounce or do you stay and try to fight?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

Like um do you try to offer protection?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

Like well the easiest parallel is I mean leaving the church being like well I can stay and fix this. I can be part of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

I know but there's also a sense as like as white people like as white people if there's and I I know a lot of people might be like oh this is far fetched and I'm ruining this for myself right now by saying this but like if there's a point where we have to hide people in our homes we are the people that need to be hiding people in our homes and if we're all gone because we can afford to bounce like that's a problem. And so I I always tell my husband I'm like if you're uncomfortable with it you take our son and you bounce but like I've got to stay and hide people in my home like in whatever that looks like you know like stay and try to do something to actually help because like as a white upper middle class woman like there are few people other than if I were a male able bodied that have more privilege and kind of like safety than me. And so if I can use that in any way to help other communities then like I gotta you know I don't know like the mood lighting just turned on it's like emotion central anyway. But yeah I mean I growing up in New York like I remember learning about the Holocaust and like turning to my little Jewish friend Jessica and being like I would hide you Jessica like like I don't know why no did no one else have those I'm not saying no one else but I just I don't understand how other people don't feel that way.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

I'm like do we not all have that lesson do we not all learn that like people have like that different reaction of like do I protect everything I know and love and protect that or am I trying to protect my community people lie like essentially putting myself at risk to help others and I mean I'm not gonna say one's right and what's wrong but it's like it's it's it's all I mean but it's also those going back to the history lessons in high school or like whatever school it was of learning about the Holocaust being like well would I have done then yeah and it's like all right well you know like what what are you doing now?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

Well it reminds me like it's this is where like you can take the girl out of the Mormonism but you can't take the Mormonism out of the girl. Like whenever I hear people say like oh well I'm stocking up on food and weapons because if shit hits the fan I gotta protect my food for my family and I'm like whoa like we don't believe in the same Jesus. Yeah because my Jesus would have had a spoon ready to go like them fishing bread loaves. Yes like it was his number one trick was spreading food. He did that again and again and again bread wine what do you mean yeah like how have we not learned that like saving helping others spreading the little that we have to others like that was Jesus's main that was his bag like bread and butter if you must like it it's so crazy to me that like we have the church hoarding wealth and we have people children in our city living on the streets of the temple who are starving freezing to death and I just that's where I say like we I'm so confused because you taught me about this Jesus and we apparently we believe in completely different Jesuses. And now I don't even know if I believe in Jesus so here we are.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

Not wrong with you that um anything else you want to make sure we cover um no cool I mean I I haven't been to is the hockey team is it fun? I like I mean I'm not the biggest sports person. Yeah me neither like I I mean I like that it brings like the thing I like about sports is it brings people together. I'm never a big sports person. Like I like people look at me and they're like hey you like to you play you play football you basketball like actually like if we're gonna go dive into who's doing well and go into the playoffs like I'm not your guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

But I always appreciate community and bringing together. Cool. There's a shirt so I put it on cool awesome um Rosie you're a gem I'm so grateful for all you do and I'm great I'm glad that you have such a good head on your shoulders that wants to take care of people, wants to support your community even if it means fighting tooth and nail for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:36

Yeah and I mean I just like whenever I have these conversations I always get in the car and have like a pin in my stomach and be like I I don't I don't think I know everything. Sometimes the Mormon in is in in me where we think we know better than everyone else is strong. But I like I don't there's so much that I don't understand um but I'm I'm not afraid to like admit when I'm wrong and like change my opinion and so I guess I I believe passionately about what I believe until I believe something else.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

And I think that's just life.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:12

Yeah I mean there's a book I read um it's the CEO of Netflix the founder of Netflix that started but at the end of the book he gives us like 10 rules of life he lives by and one is like strong opinions loosely held and like believe in something be passionate about it but admit you're wrong adjust those opinions beliefs and move on. Yeah otherwise you're just fighting from like like obvious like imagine someone being like no no no no the earth is flat like we know this being like oh come on like come on that's a whole other topic yeah um but want to wrap up with the two questions I always ask everybody at the end of each episode. Number one if you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear more about what they're up to in their story who would you want to hear from have you had Eli on Eli Eli McC

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

Can.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:00

Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:02

Eli is so great. He's currently on a mission to become a TikTok celeb and he's killing it. He's got like a few hundred thousand followers. Cool. Um, he writes for the trip. He is very funny. He's gay. He has this darling baby. Eli would be so freaking fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:21

Eli McCannada is deal.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

And then if people want to keep up with you, follow you, what's the best place to find information or your handles?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

Um, I'm at Rosie Card on most things.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:31

So R-O-S-I-E-C-A-R D.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Yep. Uh mostly on Instagram, Substack. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:37

Go subscribe to the newsletter, go follow her. She's great. If you've if you found yourself nodding vigorously at any point in this conversation, then yeah, I think you know where to go next. Yeah. But Rosie, keep it up. Proud of you. You've gone through a lot. You probably go through more, but you have the tools to do it. I'm excited to see you do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:54

Thanks. You too.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

Oh you're a gem.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:58

Well, thank you. Thank you.