S2, E10: Erik Nilsson - Small Lake City Podcast

Shakespeare is supposed to be electric, so why does it so often feel like homework? We start there, swapping stories about live theater, the Utah Shakespeare Festival, and why great acting can beat big sets every time. Then the conversation takes a hard left in the best way: I hand the mic to Tyson and let him interview me about the parts of my story that listeners keep asking for.

We talk about growing up in Salt Lake City, bouncing between friend groups, and how rollerblading and a family divorce shaped the “rebel without a cause” energy that later turned into real curiosity. From missions and Spanish to the ex-Mormon shelf breaking in college, we get honest about faith crisis, therapy, and what it takes to leave the LDS Church without letting bitterness run your life. If you’re searching for conversations about leaving Mormonism, identity shifts, and rebuilding relationships with family, this one goes there.

Career reinvention threads through everything: Seattle as a clean break, the prestige and pressure of investment banking, getting fired, and how an ADHD diagnosis finally explains years of stress and struggle. We also talk about grief, losing a colleague, and why loss makes you question what “success” even means. From six months of van life across 36 states to divorce and starting the podcast, the big theme is simple: authenticity beats performance, and community beats networking.

If this hits home, subscribe, share it with a friend who’s at a crossroads, and leave a review with the inflection point that changed your life.

50% Off Minky Couture Blankets: softminkyblankets.com/SMALLLAKECITY

Get started with Gnarly Nutrition Today: https://gnarlynutrition.sjv.io/m4OMZX

Please be sure to like, review, follow, subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and family! See you next time 

Transcript

Wanting Shakespeare Without Homework

SPEAKER_00 0:53

I want to re-experience Shakespeare as an adult. Just feels like work. What do you mean? I've seen Lay Miz like 50 times. It's just like a really cool environment and feel. But that's like that's also like peak. Shakespeare is the actors on stage. If there's one guest, ironically, that people always want to hear about the most, if they want to hear about me and my story. I'd be like, so what made you want to start the podcast? Because I was like, eh, it'd be fun to do like an interview podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

What spawned you and informed your uh perspective on the world?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

My hobby that then dictated the next, probably like around 15 years of my life, rollerblading, I was always the rebel without a cause. I think it was more gas on the fire.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

So they do this whole cannon, and he's like, and I was like, like how you know, he asked me another question, and he was like, How like what are the most popular ones? And I was like, well, you know, the Midsummer Night's Dreams, the Thellows, the Taming of the Shrew, and he's like, and I was like, but they'll do Troyus and Cressida, like they they do ever do all of them. He's like, You know what you're talking about. Like, yes. He's like, I was testing you. It's like I did not know yours. Like, thank you, stranger. I just so can I buy water now or no? I was like, I've been going there since sixth grade, and uh every year in 1964. I've missed a few years. As you as as one does. As one does. New York, when we were in New York, we didn't go. I would always try and convince Adrian to go when we were in town. Like I'd we come home for like 12 days in the summer and 12 days in the winter, and always be like, let's just sneak down to Saint Cedar City for like a night and then come back.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

No, we gotta see everybody. I need to like I was talking to someone about this recently. Like, I want to I want to re-experience Shakespeare as an adult. Because so much of my experience, like exposure to Shakespeare as a child, it's like, hey, read this, understand, we're gonna talk about this. And like when it's it just feels like work. Right. Yeah, and like don't get me wrong, like I did, oh fuck, it's a long time ago now, like 13 years ago, went to England with my family, and we saw like I didn't realize this wasn't normal. Yeah, but like so we did two weeks in England, because that's where my uh stepdad did his parents did a mission there during high school. Oh and his dad's dying wish was that he take my mom to show her, and I was living at home, so like, well, guess you're coming with us. Yeah, and so we go, and I didn't realize it wasn't normal for us to see like four Shakespeare plays and three musicals in the course of two weeks until I told people, and they're like, They're like, What? Hey, like I've never seen a musical. I was like, what do you mean? I've seen Lay Miz like 50 times.

How The Festival Changed After COVID

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, I started going in '95, I want to say. So I was actually in between fifth and sixth grade. My sister started going with my grandma and they would see the Shakespeare Festival back then would only do six plays, they'd see all six in three days. Matinee, night, matinee, night, matinee, night, come home. And so they did that for a couple years. My sister's like three and a half years older than me. And then once I was in about fifth grade, they were like, they went down and saw all six of them, and they were like, there's a few that we think Tyson could handle. So it was like, it was like three musketeers, because there's fencing. You know, like Tyson's gonna like fencing on stage. And and who doesn't even in fifth grade, like you know the story well enough. Uh Henry the Fifth and I think the Tempest. And so we saw all th all three of those, and I was like, I was in. And I think after that, I I did the same. Six plays in three days from sixth grade till about until I had graduated high school. Um and then that was Adrian and I, when we started dating, it was our first like go-away trip was going down to the Andes she enjoyed as much as you do? She does now. I like she does now. She better. No, I like I surprised her. I was like, hey, we're gonna go away for a little like weekender, but I didn't want to tell her where. And then I told her where, and she's like, Oh, I was really excited about this, but uh not quite as excited. I think I'd bought tickets to like three plays and like yeah, um, but she fell in love with it too, because it is really cool. It's just like a really cool environment and feel. Yeah, the vibes changed a little bit, like the founder died. He he was still running it when Adrian and I went 15 years ago or whatever it was. Um but the founder passed away, his protege took over as like the creative director, and then um kind of right post-COVID, and and the protege was like the director of the of the entire festival, but was also a director of the plays. He was w one of the main stars in in a lot of the plays. Um and then like was kind of like summarily fired like six weeks before the season when he was directing and starring in certain plays. And it like the I f I find it to be a complete failure of investigative journalism that like no one from like the trib or the desert news took the time to like this is a Utah institution, nobody took the time to figure out like why. Yeah, and um so I still don't really know why. Uh Scott Nooner also goes to the Shakespeare Festival all the time.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

What if ever Pegan was a Shakespeare guy though?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Oh huge Shakespeare guy. Um and he he thinks it's just like a cost thing that like Brian like did these really elaborate productions, beautiful sets, like introducing new technology, and like coming out of COVID, I think they were just like, bro, we can't keep spending this money. And he probably is like, I'm just gonna keep doing what I want to do. And they're probably like, No, you're not. Oh, you are, yeah. Well, no, you're not. So so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Because like my mom goes, I think, every year, and she'll always bring it up to me like nonchalantly, be like, Oh, I think we're going down to it's like mom, like I'm the one child of yours that's interested in this. Like, just let me know, and I'll buy tickets and but you know, like you don't need to like support me monetarily, but like let me know.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, you should go because they do a they do a musical every year, but again, it since COVID, like they've really stripped stuff down, but still really beautifully.

SPEAKER_00 6:45

But that's like that's also like peak Shakespeare is the actors on stage.

SPEAKER_01 6:50

Actors on stage, beautiful costume work, yeah. Um, still, and like their their theater, um, it used to be the Adams Theater, but they're like Shakespearean theater is open, yeah, open air.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

So I've been to the globe in London, yeah or the globe in London, yeah, and like where I saw Hamlet, and that was amazing. Yes. But like that's how it was. Like there was no props, there was no stage design, it was just actors on stage.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

And they had some cool we saw we saw um the Scottish play, um blanking on the name, uh Macbeth this last summer, and they had some really cool technical stuff. Like there's a there's kind of a like a demon character that the witches like conjure that sometimes they don't actually put that a lot of times they actually don't put that character on stage. They just kind of cut the lines and it's kind of somewhat unnecessary. But they bought it on stage and they had like people dressed in black that were like manning like these wings that they had made out of that they had made that were like 20 feet wide on each side. Cool. And they're just people like manning these big wings and stuff. It was cool. So I think you'd love it. You should give it a shot. This year, I'm going back. It's not a good one. I mean, this will be the year I don't go because we're gonna have a child newborn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I'll I'll just like sneak my phone in and I'll just do it for me. Just no, just tell me about it.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

I'll live vicariously through you.

Turning The Mic On The Host

SPEAKER_00 8:08

I'll just call you right after I'll be like, all right, here's my notes. So scene one, act one. Love it, yeah. Um well, this is a weird one for me. So um so I'm always usually the one asking questions, but if there's one guest, ironically, that people always want to hear about the most, it's they want to hear about me and my story. Because like a lot of people ask me, I mean, like, so what made you want to start the podcast, which we'll get into in more detail than I have with most people that ask me. But whenever people, whenever I think about being on my own podcast and really sharing like my story of it all, I'm not just gonna let anybody on. And so I have a pro. Like, really, though. And because like a lot of the story which we'll get into is, I mean, when I was doing like interviews professionally, I was working with you. You were the one that was teaching me how to do an an in-depth interview or work on a focus group or put together uh a questionnaire that will really get things out of it. And so when I was thinking about who I would have wanted had to interview me, it was like you were always number one on my list. And the second one was why can't I think of his name right now that we worked with? Dan. Dan? Dan Case. Dan Case.

SPEAKER_02 10:03

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

And but I was like, eh, Dan's a little like too robotic for me for something like this, and I would want Tyson. And so, and like, don't get me wrong, like I've probably been meaning to reach out to you before I did for like eight or nine months. It's okay. But you know, accept my own apology to myself.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Yeah, life comes at you fast. Yeah, I I didn't know that you were thinking about it. So yes, you're apologizing. You're you're you don't just to show your car. You just text me one day, like, hey, have you been thinking about maybe I thought you were gonna reach out to me. I just felt it. I'm kind of pissed that you didn't.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

Thank God. But no, I'm excited because like so. Tyson and I worked together at a little place called Cicero Group, which is now I think called MGT. Yeah. And I don't know the story about that. I don't really care, to be honest. Um, but where we did a lot of, I mean, call it strategy consulting, management consulting, of helping companies understand their customers better, understand um how to strategically think about their businesses better, where we would talk to their customers and their people to help them understand better. And so that's where uh when I was first thinking about or like having this not necessarily existential crisis, but this like next step crisis in my life of like, I mean, it was around like 2018-ish 2019, where like there's this little voice in the back of my head that was like, Hey, like I think there's something else you need to be doing, but wouldn't tell me what it was. And so, like, there's a couple business ideas I was juggling around, but nothing felt right. And it wasn't until I was listening to a lot of podcasts at the time while doing this for work, and I was like, eh, it'd be fun to do like an interview podcast. But then I'm like, okay, but if I did, who would it look like? Who would it be? What's the concept? What's gonna resonate? Yeah, so things started to come together, but I knew that it was gonna be probably you to interview me. So snap. So so here take it as it is of being the one that I want to have here.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

You're welcome, America.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yes. Um, but yeah, I mean it's I mean, I can kind of like start how I don't even I don't even know how to start it as like not being the guest.

Childhood Freedom And Not Feeling Home

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Yeah, let me let me take over. I'll take the reins. Take it away, which is good because then I I'll I'll get to talk less. Um and I can just kind of ask you some questions. So um, I mean, we'd kind of talked about it. Like we I think your audience uh you've you've created this monster, you've created this thing that like has real traction, and like I think people just want to know more about who you are, and so like we don't have to start at like you know the big bang, but just start at like your childhood. Like uh I think someone who's done as many things as you've done and has found their uh place interviewing people and just being curious, generally curious, about where they come from and what's made them the people that they are. I think uh we might as well start kind of where you started, what has what's formed you and informed your uh perspective on the world. So kind of take us through your childhood. What what happened?

Rollerblading And A Family Split

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Yeah, no, my childhood was always like interesting, especially like pre-10 years old, because so I mean I was born at uh what hospital was it then? It was uh Salt Lake Regional, which is now I don't even know what it is now. It's down on what second, south, and seventh, ninth, tenth, eleventh, something around there. But like the reason I was born there is because my mother is a pediatrician and she wanted to give birth somewhere where nobody recognized her because she was in the Intermountain system, so she's like, I'm gonna go to the Salt Lake place. Nice. And so and like so my mom was a pediatrician, my dad was a pediatric neuropsychologist, so a family of medical folk, um, especially well-educated. My mom went to MIT in Harvard and got her medical degree at the University of Utah, my dad got his PhD at the University of Utah. Yeah, but growing up was like kind of always weird because I was the baby, I had two older sisters, but always I've realized found myself, I mean, not really enjoying being at home. Like I'd always be the kid be like, hey, I'm just gonna go to a friend's house after school every day. Yeah. And so I grew up in this cul-de-sac on it's called North Cliff Drive, and like I had so many neighbors that I could interact with. So there's one two houses down, his name was Lucas. He actually passed away about probably like 10, 15 years ago. And but like we would just like I would go over there every day, we would play with Transformers and talk about Power Rangers, and then I had the bear, uh, the Bears across the street that like were the ones that introduced me to video games, and they all like had like two gaming computers and like a second gen, like just had everything. So I'm like, of course I'm going over there. Absolutely. And then actually that was the Daniels, and then the Bears was this like German family, and we would just go like hike and ride bikes, and then there's the Chungs who had a pool. So like I would always just be somewhere else. Like I didn't like being at home because there was my mom worked a good amount, my sisters were always doing stuff, um, kind of just like friction in my just like life there, which we'll get into. But and I was always just kind of doing a lot of things. I mean, growing up, grew up playing, I mean, every sport you can imagine, played a lot of soccer, living played basketball, we did swim team and dive team every summer. So it was always just kind of out and about, oot in a boot. Yeah, and but like at the same time, there's a lot of me just kind of like trying to figure out. I mean, I didn't I don't want to say that. Like, I I was still very insular in my life, and it really wasn't until let's see, I would probably say fourth grade. So fourth grade comes along, yeah, which like two main things happened in my life. Number one is my hobby that then dictated the next probably like around 15 years of my life, rollerblading. Sure. Became something that I got. I forgot you were a rollerblade. I know I forget too. The last time I had was like five years, but I still like talk to all my friends. So it's like it's like not top of mind, but it's like middle of mind.

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:15

And and so that was and like both of these two experiences together, like gave me an interesting perspective of the world that I didn't have before. And so, and I got introduced to rollerblading by one of my really my first, like I would say, best friend. His name was Joey Kirk. His dad is Kevin Kirk, he's the one who owns the heavy metal shop.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

And so I would spend a lot of time great t-shirts.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Oh, great t-shirts.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Four or five, and I need to go get another one actually, because my girlfriend stole one. And so I would go to their house, and like their house is a memorabilia of metal music, wow, complete with like shrine to Alice Cooper.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

There was like an Iron Maiden pinball machine, the walls are covered with all this memorabilia and records, and like they also love like horror movies and Halloween, and so I was just like taken aback because here's this family, like they're all tattooed, um, just like very uh contrary to my very LDS upbringing. Yeah, yeah. And but at the same time, like I had this like inner conflict, I didn't really recognize it as an interconflict, but I'm like, how do these two things exist at the same time? And so Joey was also when it got me in the rollerblading, and so we would go to the skate park, like it was almost like daycare. Like my mom'd be like, Yeah, I'm gonna go drop you off the skate park for six hours, and like, which introduced me to a lot of things that I'd never had been exposed to. I mean, I I learned every single word under the sun, I learned what drugs were, I learned what like sex was like it was just like such like a interesting exposure into life.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

And so it's kind of like made me grow up faster, and so like all of this was happening, and at the same time, like my parents come to me and they're such like, hey, your mom and the kids are moving, your dad's moving, but we're not moving together. And but like how old were you? Uh it was just before my 11th, it was like August 1st, 2000.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

And yeah, 2000. And so it was, and like it's always interesting as a child looking back, because like when they told us, we're like, oh yeah, like that makes sense. Like, if like it's not like they had a great marriage. Yeah. And like in hindsight, you kind of see it in like especially I mean, anyway, that's a whole nother thing of just kind of realizing that like this new dynamic was gonna take place. Yeah. And so we ended up moving down kind of closer to like Yellowcrest area, which is like a very, I mean, different kind of neighborhood. Cause like I grew up in a cul-de-sac where there's like five families, but it's not like I would go too much out of there because it's avenues and like um steep roads and stuff. But then I was kind of put in this neighborhood of like pretty wealthy people.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

And I was just, I mean, coming from a single mother home, my sister was going into my next oldest sister was gonna be a freshman in high school. My other sister was a senior in high school, I was going into fifth grade, my mom was working all the time because she's now a single mom. And like, so I found myself alone a lot. And so again, like I would go to other friends' house, I would always just kind of not be home. And so I always found myself in in like being kind of this let's call it like lone wolf of sorts, yeah. Of just always kind of fine being alone, just kind of like finding my my wolf pack wherever I needed to, but also just kind of retreating back to whatever I I needed to and wanted to. Yeah, and so it was it was interesting of going to like a new school, new dynamic. Like my mom always gives me for lack of better term, shit, for um essentially being like, I don't want to go to this prehistoric school, I want to go back to like my old school. And like, keep in mind, like I was not a good, like if I was in your class as a teacher, they'd be like, This kid's cool, but I hate him at the same time. He's a he's a disaster. Exactly. Like, like the it's ironic because so my um principal at my first elementary school enzyme up in the avenues. Okay, like me and uh Mr. Lamalfa, the principal, like he knew me, I knew him. Oh yeah, like to the point where when I got my first job working at Emigration Market when they used to have a patio before they were bought by Harmons, yeah, he comes in and I walk up to him like Mr. Lamalfa. He's like, Eric. I was like, good to see you. He's like, is it? Um, but then it's also ironic because in a very small Lake City way, he is the father-in-law to Aaron Mendenhall. So when I had her on the pockets, I was like, so riddle me this. And she's like, Yep, that's my father-in-law. I was like, he will know me. Um but yeah, so I go to this new neighborhood, and it's I mean, kind of interesting of like getting exposed to to a lot more kind of like five family dynamics, I mean, very like tight-knit church groups.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

Um, but at the same time, like I was always the rebel without a cause.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Um, again, like a lot of that was has to do with like rollerblading, and like I had kind of like I mean, I had friends all over the place, and that kind of became more apparent when I went to high school at East, because like I was a kid who played sports, so I'd like my like quote jock friends, but then I did theaters, so I'd like my thespian friends, but then I'd like kind of like go drink and smoke weed with kids, and that would be like like the skater kids, and then I'd be still be living in like my core group of friends where I lived, were like kind of like the rich, wealthy kids. So I kind of just was able to go jump around and have friends wherever I needed to, and it was it was really, really easy. Nice, but at the same time, like I was always, I mean, I didn't like like going to church, you know matter how much my mom would ask me, she'd always wake me up in the morning and be like, no. I remember there was one time I hear a knock on my door, she's like, Hey Eric, you know, it's like no, I don't want to go, it's sunny. She's like, Oh no, it's it's five o'clock, it's time for dinner. And I was like, Oh, I'm up. Yep, let's let's eat. Nice. And so it was always kind of like this interesting dynamic for me where I had kind of all of these different parts of me, but then it like still had this same like like like my core identity was still in the center of it all. And but like the thing that always comes back to me, and like even in therapy, it's been interesting to talk to my therapist about it, because like I had so many interactions with people that I could have ended up in a very, very, very bad place. For sure. Like, I mean, especially thinking about like a lot of this friend, like this gay friends that I had. I mean, I can count on maybe one hand, maybe a little bit more than one hand, that died of like overdose, I mean, something to that extent, but for some reason, like I always knew better. Like, I would do stupid stuff, but I wouldn't do like really stupid stuff.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Well, and you like it sounds like you had a diverse kind of group of friends that could keep you grounded in some of the other like you knew where the lines were, maybe. Like I think that I think back to my childhood, and it's you know uh I had the same group of of neighborhood friends basically from birth to high s through high school. And like I got lucky in that we were like, you know, we skateboarded and stuff, um, but we were relatively naive and some of them were Mormon, some of them weren't, but like we uh generally didn't pursue some of those things. But had we, like, uh I would have been along for the ride. So I I think it's helpful that you had friends that kind of spanned a diverse perspective um so that you didn't kind of follow a singular path. Like I I think that's that speaks a lot to you. You mentioned that um you know you're kind of this rebel. Uh do you it sounded like that kind of started before your parents' divorce. Do you feel like the divorce um threw some gas on the fire, or was it like you were already kind of like this singular lone wolf that just wanted to kind of do his own thing before that?

SPEAKER_00 22:05

I think it was more gas on the fire, but not I mean not necessarily gas on the fire, is in like creating this white space for me to expand into whatever I needed to be or whatever, whatever I wanted to be, which I mean at that young of an age it can go a lot of different ways. Yeah, for sure. And like thankfully it went in a pretty good direction for me and always had a pretty level head on. Like I would do, like again, like I would do stupid stuff, but I wouldn't do like terrible things. Yeah, like I mean, like even in a way of eh, we'll go I'll share that after this. But it's um yeah, it just gave me a space to be like, oh, like what do I want to do? Who do I want to spend time with? But like also in a very like juvenile way, still felt like I needed to have acceptance from people and validation from people. Like I mean, I was always a chubby kid growing up, and like people would make fun of me to my face all the time, and I'd be like, ha ha, that's okay. Can I still like will you still like accept me? Yeah, that's tough. And I mean, especially even in high school, like I had friends that would be like, hey, like there's girls coming over, uh, there's only two of them, there's three of us, like, gotta go. And I'd be like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

And kids, man, could be cruel.

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Really, though. It's like insane in hindsight, like the things that I would say to people, the people would say to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, yeah, it that's the thing. Like, uh what gives me like I have some empathy because like we all do and say things that like looking back now with like fully developed frontal lobes that we totally regret. But there are, you know, there are some that maybe go way too far, but that that's that's tough. So you had this kind of lone wolf childhood and you were developing all these different friend groups. What are some of the like how did you kind of evolve and mature as as you were kind of moving through your adolescence? Like kind of pre mission, pre college, like what That evolution look like?

Social Pressure And Choosing A Mission

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yeah, so there was, I mean, even in high school, it was interesting because like one of my really good friends in high school, probably best friends in high school, was a guy by the name of Kai Kropella. So, Kai, if you're from Salt Lake and you ski, you'll know his name. He was a pretty well-known professional skier. I mean, skied for line, did all the level one movies, but I would, I mean, essentially as soon as school is out on Friday, I would either have my mom drive me up to Park City or I drive myself up to Park City and I'd be there till Sunday. So again, like I get exposed to like this Park City crowd of kids, which is again like another echelon of wealth, but then also another echelon of like getting away with things. Yeah, doing doing some crazy stuff up for and so like there was also that which was kind of fun to see. Again, like I was exposed to another household that was very unlike my own. And like, I mean, his mom D was like one of the greatest people ever. And she'd be like, Oh, you're here again, cool, let me put another place down. Or his dad, Eric, um, who unfortunately passed away about 10 years ago, like he drove us to I mean, to California, to Idaho, to all these different places, in Cedar City, actually, for all these different like, I mean, skate things and social things. And so it's fun to see how because like I didn't have a great family dynamic. Like, my mom was a great person, she did everything she could, but my dad was not that great of a human being. And like I knew, like when they got divorced, I don't really know too much of like the why. And because I was the youngest kid, and then there'd be like a Freudian slip here and there, or someone would say something, or like, did you not know that? And I'd be like, Nope, sure didn't. Interesting. And so, like, it would when they first got divorced, like, yeah, I'll go see like a movie, go to dinner and see movie with dad every like Saturday night, and then after a while, I was like, eh, like maybe once a month, maybe every other month, and just slowly kind of faded away because I was like, Yeah, we're we're good.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Um and then he ended up moving up to Idaho, so it made it a lot easier in that regard. But yeah, there was like a lot of these different kinds of moves that it impacted me, especially like as I mean, before I like went on a mission, like that was always one, because like I wouldn't have gone on a mission if I like kept my same course for sure. But then like I remember there was like this like fireside that they had for like mission prep, and I can't remember why I went. I think my bishop told like I had like I would always kind of like check in for the key milestones of like growing up. They'll be like, Yep, time to be a deacon. I'm like, all right, yep, get it, be like, all right.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Had a had some good friends that that was the same trajectory where it's just like, yeah, I've got to do this, gotta meet with the bishop, yeah, gotta go on the mission.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

So I would just kind of like have like this. I mean, when I was a deacon, I was 12, when I was a teacher when I was 14, when I got a priest when I was 16. And then I can't remember why, but there's like something end of high school or like part of the thing, like to do something, the bishop was like, Hey, you have to go to this mission prep class. I was like, Yeah, whatever, all my friends will be there. And it was like kind of like there's this, it was like the first like social pressure. I was like, oh, they're all leaving here in the next X amount of time. Yeah. What am I gonna do? And then all of a sudden you throw in like social pressure, family pressure, and end up going on a mission. Yeah, which I mean, it's like been an interesting battle, like as I as I've now left the church and have talked about a lot. Like, there's part of it where I'm like, oof, like didn't love what I did there. Yeah, but then there's a lot of things like, I mean, I know Spanish, which hasn't come in help hasn't been as helpful as anybody would have ever thought. Yeah. Sorry, mom. And um, but it's also been nice to have like, oh, here's a system of accountability. Oh, yeah, here's what time management is like, here's like mean so so like there's so much of that that I'm super grateful for. Yeah, absolutely. Especially when I came back and saw kind of like the difference between the two. I was like, oh, like this definitely gave me a leg up in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

Yeah. Yeah, I I mean, uh, I I wasn't part of the church. I was baptized, but didn't didn't go to church, never my parents weren't active. They just kind of did it because it's like, yeah, uh, everybody in the neighborhood is, you know, Mormon, so we might as well at least get you baptized, right? Totally. Um and so I it's it's something that you taught you do talk about on the podcast quite a bit, is is even if it's just referential, like uh before I went on mission or when I went on my mission, or uh talking to some of your guests like about their missions. Um and it I think it is totally the right uh approach and it's so appropriate given like the audience and and just your lived experience. Um, but it is something that I'm always so curious about, is like uh and we can talk more about your mission and how it formed you, but like how it informs the like the podcast and the way that you talk about things, uh it's just so so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Well, and it's like Salt Lake in itself, and we're gonna call it like core Salt Lake, is very much of this spectrum of LDS somewhere in the middle and like vehemently not LDS.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Either either you never were and you don't like it, or you were and you've become part of the counterculture.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Exactly. And so like when the pendulum swings one way, like if you're super active, then you don't understand the other part of it. But then if you're either have left well, if you've never been or you moved here, then you like it's always these conversations like so what so what happens at church? What's the temple? What's the difference? How does this leave for the right?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

The reason like real housewives of Salt Lake is so popular, like people love to see behind the behind the veil for exactly uh no better term, but like they love to kind of hear about this, and so I I mean it intrigues me as somebody that grew up with a lot of Mormon people as well. So like this is a good opportunity for us to get back to your mission and just how you dealt with that cognitive dissidence. Did you deal with that cognitive dissonance or was it not until you got back?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

I mean, I was as in it as in it could be. I mean, especially when I came back. Like I have friends that still give me shit to this day. Of like I came back and I was like, I can't listen to a single song that has a swear word in this. Or like I remember if one of my friends.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

You're at video Verns getting the getting the clean versions of movies.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Well, then like I had a friend who like he came back just before me and he like pulls up to like where we were, I can't remember where we were in his car, and he was blaring like rap music, and I look at him like, Did you even go on a mission? type like it was cringe for no matter where you are in that spectrum. And uh and it was like and and so it helped me understand a lot of again, like all of that gray area, but then like even with the podcast and the experience and being able to relate to people, like and I'll get into it a little bit when I talk about like my own faith journey, faith crisis, is I like I no longer have this chip on my shoulder, like animosity towards it. I'm like very indifferent, where it's like, yeah, like cool, like I live my life, like, and sometimes like the easiest comparison is is like I have to go back to the Truman show whenever I go experience some other people, and it's not like I'm gonna go to them and be like, Don't you know this, or like, haven't you heard this, or how dare you do that? It's like I can respect boundaries, I don't want to talk about it, you don't really want to talk about it, and that's fine. But there's still people I love and care about, and I'm never gonna like hate them or ostracize them because of it, but and that I respect this is something I think that uh you know people sometimes don't understand.

Spanish Speaking Mission And New Empathy

SPEAKER_01 30:12

Is like I also really respect people intellectually that still make that choice. Like it's not that I think that you're you're dumb for believing in in Mormonism or any other religion for that matter. Like, I I do think that it's like you know, we everybody has different information, and when we have the same information, sometimes we come to different conclusions. And so um that's interesting that kind of like your acceptance of it. So, but let's go back to to you were you were kind of at that that inflection point. So I can't. Everybody's about to leave. Oh, yeah. You were you were kind of like, oh, what it well, you know, I guess I'm gonna do this. Like it sounds like you weren't all in until you until you made that choice.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

It wasn't until I mean, and like this is gonna kind of like have a little of a sting to it, but it was like one of the few times my mom's actually been really proud of me. And like, and so like there was a lot of validation from that, and a lot of like from my like sisters and like just like my like broader family and my friends of being like like all in on me. I was like, oh like kind of like this. So I ended up going to the good old Washington Kennoick mission. If you've never heard of it, that makes sense. It's the from the tri-cities in the southwest eastern corner of Washington, went to all the places that no one's ever heard of, was Spanish speaking. Lovely. Uh, where I mean, if you've had a stone fruit from Washington, I was in the area where I was picked and I was talking to the people who were picking them.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

And but it was, I mean, it was a good experience, met a lot of really interesting people. I mean, got an interesting perspective, especially someone who was raised in a predominantly white area, predominantly like middle class, upper middle class. I was dealing with people who were like a lot of like, I mean, migrant workers and a lot of people who I mean weren't citizens and weren't like doing well and like were going very like and people who are like sacrificing everything every day so they could put food on the table for their family, which helped me uh like understand a lot of different perspectives and see a lot more from points of view that I never experienced or even thought about experiencing before.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

Yeah, you can't help but internalize that that empathy and and that perspective, even if you know you're an 18-year-old kid that has like a job to do and a and a really s a narrow perspective on like what it is that makes a good life and all those sorts of things. Like I I think people do undersell the like the quality and value of just like exposure. Yes. Like there's real value in that.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

So because it was it was like super interesting too because what was I gonna say about this?

SPEAKER_01 32:35

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

Oh, the I interjected it. Yeah, no, no, no, I was I interjected your interjection, so we both interjected. But like the the thing that I think gave me a lot of perspective as well, on top of just like I mean the socioeconomic perspective of my mission and the people I'm talking to is also being able to talk to them in their own native language. When it was my second language at this point, yeah, yeah. And like I I mean, I'll be honest, like I spoke pretty good Spanish, I still speak pretty good Spanish, and it was so interesting to hear like when you hear someone speak in a second language, there's like I mean, a perception that's given and understood. Yeah. But when you get to talk to them in their own language and hear their story, you understand it very differently. For sure. And so I think that was another aspect that played into all of that and being able to see people as they were, not as they portrayed themselves or as I saw them.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah, yeah. And just like that, you know, taking of their perspective where it's like to your point, I think a lot of us interact with people um in English, and and we whether it's conscious or not, there's kind of social reasons for us making assumptions about um their intelligence or their you know, all those sorts of things. And like a another reason why a mission, even though again I don't I'm I'm a non-believer in all those sorts of things, but like I I see the real value in that. Like, again, you pick it up by osmosis, even if you have this really narrow focus of an 18-year-old kid that kind of doesn't know his ass from the hole in the ground, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yeah. And like everyone, like all my friends and I were getting our calls, because I'm older, like my birthday's the end of August, we're gonna go. And um shout out. And so I got like I was one of the first ones to get it. Yeah, and like I get called to Washington, Spanish speaking, and I was like pretty stoked. But then uh it was kind of funny because like after all my friends, like one goes to Paraguay, one goes to Cape Verde, one goes all this, they're like, Are you like are you excited about this? I was like, Yeah, why why? They're like, you know, it's like a two-hour flight.

College Identity Swings And The Shelf

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Stateside missions always had a again, they always had a a bit of a stigma to them. I I I remember that from my friends being like, Yeah, I'm going stateside. Yeah, you know, what does that say about me?

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah, but at the same time, guess who had a car the entire time? Guess who had a Walmart and air conditioning and an apartment. Jokes on them. Jokes on them. But then I mean, coming back was an interesting one because like I said, I mean, I was a weirdo, like, and I like I was like, Mom, I'm gonna get fair, very fair. But like, even to my mom, I was like, Mom, I'm gonna get married in the next 18 months, and like just like very, very, very Mormon boy. And and it uh because like so I got back, let's see, November 29th, 2010. And I come back and I'm like, okay, like so go like and I I knew that I was gonna go to the University of Utah, and I was excited about that. But then I mean, if you're from Salt Lake, especially like because I went to East, which is like right next to Salt Lake, I mean, so next to the U. Yeah, and I mean it's kind of like understood it's like, oh, well, you're just gonna keep your same social structures, you're gonna have the same things happen. And I was like, I don't want that, especially when I did that first spring semester. I was like, I feel like I'm back in high school, I don't necessarily love this. It's like it's not terrible, but it's not like did you live at home or did you live on campus? I let's see, I got back. No, I lived at home the first semester and then I can't remember what I did during the summer because I didn't do school. Oh, I went and worked uh at summer camp, and then I came back, and uh so I was living up so one of my friends' uncle, like one of my friends' families had a house that was just like right across the street from President Circle.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

And so I moved and it's like 200 bucks a month for rent. I had my own room, it was pretty sweet. But then I was like still just feeling that I was like, you know what? Uh and I was talking to a lot of friends who were involved in like Greek life, they're in fraternity sororities, they're like, listen, like we understand the stigmas, we understand this, but like it's pretty great socially, and it's like having the college experience you want. So I go through the whole rush process, and like so I end up joining Sigma Kai, and so I end up like being, I mean, I was working at GNC, making like nothing of money.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

And so I think you were the protein.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Uh I mean that's the creatine, the protein, I mean this guy. God, yeah, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Greek god.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

And so I was like, well, I can't afford living away from home and this, so I went and moved back to my parents' house. And again, like Greek life, I think was the next one where I was like, okay, here's all these kids, they're all really like very ambitious people. Like when you if you were to take a general population of the U versus general population of the like kids in my fraternity, like they were a lot more ambitious, they were a lot more driven, everyone wanted to get good grades, but also wanted to have a good time and have fun and make friends. And so again, like I'm like, these people are like drinking, some people drinking a lot, but they're still good people, good head on their shoulders. I mean, not I mean the bell curve exists everywhere, and there's still shitheads there for sure. But and that was another one of this, like kind of like like trying to break of like what I understood the world to be and like the cognitive dissonance, exactly. And that's where a lot of I mean using like ex-Mormon terms, like the shelf started to break. Because I've never heard that one. Oh, you haven't heard that? Oh, but let me educate you for a minute. So there's this term in ex-Mormonism, what's called your shelf. And so, like every time you have something like, I don't agree with this, but I don't know what to do with it, I'm gonna put it on the shelf. Oh god, and so after a while you put so many things on the shelf, it starts to break. And so that's when I like started putting things on the shelf. And I mean, that's where I mean, I was going to school, like having my also my like perspective of the world changing from and like I was someone who like took school a little differently than most, because most people I was around is like, oh, like there's classes for my major, but there's class, I'm just gonna do like the easy ones. But I was more along, like I wanted to know what I wanted to do was gonna be the right thing. Yeah, and so I mean, even when I started school, I was gonna be an architect and I was like, eh, not enough creativity, not enough jobs, not enough money.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:04

Um, then went to, let's see, then it was civil engineering, pre-pharmacy, I have no idea, business, and then eventually finance. And like during that, it was, I mean, I interned at like a private wealth management place. I interned at in DC at the Treasury, interned doing investment banking. Like, so I just was like very much like this uh narrowing pendulum swing, so to speak. Yeah, and so it was it was so much like of a journey for me. And I mean, especially like that's when I was like also dating and like it would like, but also like me as a was a roller coaster. Yeah, like it would almost be every other month. I'm like, oh hey, actually, no, I'm not drinking, like I'm going to church tomorrow, and like still friends, and like they'd get it because it's Utah's like, oh, that's fine, do your thing, but then I'd be like, crash in and like now I am, no, I'm not, and like just kind of trying to figure this out and not really, I mean a lot of internal conflict.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

Yeah, I mean, just hearing it, like just because we've never really talked through this before. Um, and just hearing you talk about coming home from your mission and being like, I'm not even gonna listen to rap music to like a semester later or summer later, being like, Yeah, I'm in a fraternity, and I may or may not be binge drinking like a maniac, you know what I mean? Like that's that's a pretty that is a pretty wild swing.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

But yeah, I mean that was I mean, yes, like especially at that point where I think there's a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Yeah, what was I I guess the the core question of what I'm asking is like just in in our conversation, that feels like a really quick switch for how from coming home from your mission, not listening to rap, to deciding that like you wanted to be in a fraternity, like and knowing even if you're not going to drink, knowing you're gonna be exposed to it, like what was the kind of what was the thought process there if you can remember it?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yeah, no, I think it was because there's a lot of people that were in a similar boat. Gotcha. Like because there's a lot of like return missionaries, people that didn't drink, people that like a big group that would wake up s Sunday morning and go to church. Okay. And I would say, like, because so when I joined when I go into college, that was let's see, beginning of 2012. And so had just joined the Pac-12, they're getting a lot more nation national exposure, and a lot of people from out of state are coming in, especially when you just get to go ski every day and go to school too. Like, hell yeah. And you'd been home for how long at that point?

SPEAKER_01 40:12

Not even a year at that point. Not even a year, but enough to kind of like it it maybe felt like a slower descent into like back to social culture cultural norms. Yes. Like you were kind of like, by then you were a little bit more like, oh, okay, I can listen to rap, or were you still pretty much a little bit more?

SPEAKER_00 40:28

No, I'd I'd like cut back to X's on my hands. Exactly. No, it was it was very much like I would stay in my lane and people like there's just also just like a general respect between it. Like that's great. It's not like there would be these like peer pressure people like, oh, what Mormon boy you want to drink? That's good. Oh, you're not drinking, that's cool, you're still a good person, we can have a good conversation. But like I do remember the first time I ever did drink. It was the first time after my mission. It was at this house party. I have a lot of everything about this. And I had a 20-ounce Red Bull, like typical Mormon boy at a house party. It's like, I got my Red Bull, we're fine. And I look at my friend, he looks at me, and he has a bottle of vodka in his hand. I look at him, I look at this, I was like, do it. And he was someone who, shout out Sean Ward, he's like, every time we'd be at a party, he'd be drunk, he's like, I just wish I could get drunk with you. I wish I could drunk. Like I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'm like, do it. He's like, and dud, like, no hesitation, doesn't skip a beat, and like I got real drunk at that. I ended up throwing up that night. But then but it was sounds about right. But it was like, again, like it was as long as you didn't cry or wet yourself. Just kidding. No, neither of those. But it was also part of like, I mean, an important part of like the journey, because like I knew I I mean in hindsight, in hindsight, I know that I would have had to experience that even if I did eventually take the turn back to where I I started from.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

And so, like again, but then like that also started, like I said, this roller coaster of who am I, what do I want, what am I doing? Uh, which is I mean a common uh experience to have during college. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

Quarter life crisis.

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Exactly yes. Like I didn't even I was like, I gave it the definition without even really understanding the definition. And now I'm like in hindsight, like this was 10 ish years ago. I'm like, whew, like you went through a lot there, buddy. Like, yeah, good job. But then, like also during that time is when I started dating my now ex-wife, but my like my girlfriend and then wife at the time, and she was someone who what year? Uh this well, let's see, we started dating December 2013.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Okay, so you're pretty young. You were still like just a sophomore junior?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah, somewhere around there. Okay. And so I I mean it which again, like, I think she was the right person for me at that time for sure, because she wasn't someone who was like, I mean, she was like very middle of the ground, like not super Mormon, but not super not.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:32

Had family that was, had family that wasn't. And so it's kind of like a very good safe space for me and all of that. And um so I mean that and that was something like the last two years that like really just let me be like, okay, I have a girlfriend, I don't necessarily need to go to parties for like with an intention outside of like I want to go see my friends. Yeah. And then I mean, like my jobs in college were always funny because like I got home and I started at a call center, Dan Jones and associates.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

I did not remember that you were in the call center.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Terrible job, hated it every second.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Had a friend come. I was like, dude, I got a job for you.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Shout out to TJ.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

And then I get so, but like it sucked. I mean, I I even get like a telemarketing call every now and then I'm like, hey, like I'm so sorry, but no. Yeah, like good luck.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

It's a rough, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:19

And then uh got introduced to uh person who ran a GNC, so and it was nice because like it was super slow. I could do homework, hours were flexible, and then I worked at the Red Robin on Foothill, rest in peace, um, which was a wild one of like also like restaurant culture when you're an adult is insane.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Industry people love them. My best friends, some of my best friends are in the industry. It is it is a wild, like wild riot.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I even went to brunch the other day and I saw someone that I worked with at Red Rob and I was like, oh my god, you're still doing like not to say it's a bad thing, but I was just like fuck me. Um but I was like, oh my god, like I haven't thought or seen you in forever.

SPEAKER_01 44:00

No, it's just it like you say it I I uh respect the hell out of people that do that job. I've never I was actually I I worked retail, but I never did food industry, and it's like it's such a hard job, so like so stressful, but like also the like the culture of like going out and partying and like um very insular. Yeah, and just like the the degree of like breaking down the barriers between you and your coworkers where it's like, yeah, we don't even put on professional airs. It's like you know, we're talking shit, we're going out, like it's it can be intense for sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

And but then my favorite job almost ever came up, and is when someone's like, hey, there's this like these are these apps where you can just have someone come pick you up and they'll take you where you need to go. Wait, you were an Uber driver? I was a Lyft driver.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

Oh, and so shout out to Lyft. Shout out to Lyft. I they don't they don't sponsor the podcast, obviously. But that is who I use. Well, that's what I always do. Because I don't need to go in and be like fumbling around with like, am I ordering food or not? Like just um you can come pick me up. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

But it was fun because so I someone's like, Oh, like it's an interesting thing, there's this. Never even used it. But I was like, yeah, sign up, whatever. And I was like, Cool, you're good to go. I was like, all right, so I start doing it. It was so fun. Because like I would just see, where are you going? What are you doing? Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Oh man, I'm just a man that loves to interview people.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

It was just like these rapid flies. Having them locked in a car with you. Tell me about yourself. Yeah, exactly. But it was fun because, like, especially because again, like I'm in a pretty committed relationship. And so it gave me the opportunity to like lock in on work Monday, I mean, sorry, on school Monday through Friday. Yeah, I would work Friday night, Saturday night, and I was good.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

And then eventually they they don't have it anymore, but they used to have this thing called the mentor program where like people who had really good ratings, I mean active in community, blah blah blah, whatever it was, you'd be the person to like have these like interviews with people where you'd kind of answer any questions they have, walk them through how it all works, but also kind of be this last line of defense of being like, hey no, like they're asking about, hey, do you ever see like girls passed out? You're like, oh, you won't ever, hopefully.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

Yeah.

Marriage And Starting Over In Seattle

SPEAKER_00 46:02

And so, but it was nice because like it took about it takes about 15 minutes and it paid me like a hundred bucks per one that I would do. Wow. So I would just line them up in the old Shopgo parking lot and at Sugar House. And I would just be like, cool, you're at five, you're at 515, you're at 530, you're at 545. So I do like eight in a row. Nice. Go make like almost a thousand bucks and I'd be good. So I didn't even really drive anymore. It was insane. This is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

It was the best gig ever. I've I'm loving all the like behind the like you know behind the scenes stuff that I'm getting all the all the Mormon stuff, all the stuff about Uber. Oh man.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

And so it was fun because then okay so that takes me like but I've graduated. So by then um like it's back so like me and my ex got married and it was wild because so we get married the next day's Mother's Day and then the next day we go to Bali for two weeks. Fire and then come back and like a week later I drive her to Seattle to start her first job because she had already graduated.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Yeah I was gonna ask about Seattle because I knew that you'd gone there. Yeah um and it's funny because I had conflated it when we were talking about this interview. I'd conflated your trip to Washington with kind of applying to go maybe to UW for graduate school. Yes. And so I was like why was he there? So I was always curious like why you were in Seattle so she knew it's she had gotten an internship up there and then a full-time offer there and like for me like there's a couple things I like I really want to do investment banking.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah and but like I would always get to these like penultimate interviews like listen you go to a state school you don't have a 4.0 you don't have experience what do you want me to tell you and so I I graduate and then let's see so yeah so it's like we're doing I mean long distance relationship for the first like eight years of our marriage or sorry eight months of our marriage. It's like what okay yeah that makes sense which I suck like she would fly in I would fly up but again like I'm in college it's not like I have money to go every weekend to really have much flexibility. Meanwhile I'm living in her dad's basement with my two dogs with him his and like another one of his daughters like not fun but it was like grateful to have it. And so end up graduating in finance and then getting a job as well up in Seattle. So I go up there and it was fun like it was fun to get separation. Like I always tell everybody like leave hometown like go le go get out of Dodge go figure out what's out there because I mean it's it's like wild to me that people just like especially the people that especially it happens a lot in Salt Lake where people stay in the same neighborhood.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

There's a lot of places in the country that have it though it's like Boston is known for kind of like you're born in Boston you stay in Boston you know like there's just kind of that provincial nature to it whereas other places are are more transient. And so it's I think it's good advice for anyone that's you know young and has been in one place their whole life. It's like you gotta get out. Whether it's going from a big city to a medium sized city or a small town whether it's the you know vice versa I just think it's really it does open your eyes up to it. You'd kind of experience that as a as a missionary but like but it's different as a the missionary you just got these blinders on you're just so focused on the goal.

SPEAKER_00 49:01

But there it really was I don't want to say like the hair that broke the camel's back but it was like because I had all these experiences of like my childhood of like okay like these little like points of view into families and then I go on this mission and I have these friends in high school and then I have college I see this but like that was really the first time I'm like hey you're dumped into an entire new world as an adult with responsibilities around other people and it was awesome because it really did give me this like more agnostic view of the world. Because like in Salt Lake I mean whether you're in it or out of it the church is going to be a social part of your life it's culturally a little different I mean a lot different than anywhere else.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

You're baptized because your family's like well kids in the neighborhood might not be able to come to your birthday party if they're not like me. You know like those are like those are real concerns they happen yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

And so it was nice to go so I start a job and like no one's Mormon like very like I remember we had one conversation about religion. It was because someone like we were talking over lunch and like oh what are you doing this week and like oh we're baptizing my son like oh what are you baptizing like oh Pentac like whatever I think was Catholic oh cool I'm Christian. I grew up Mormon well like anyway so uh how's the swarma you know and just very like nonchalant and I had a couple friends from Utah that lived up there that we go golf every now and then or not but like definitely not like my like didn't spend a ton of time with them. And so like that was really the first time where I'm like hey I get to exist as who I am not as society and anything else wants me to be and the like we went to church every now and then but it was like 20 minutes away and everyone there was really weird. And this was after like the like the gay marriage stuff had happened and like we were kind of picking sides. Yeah oh no it was wild so we get there and they're like hey by the way yeah the half the ward stopped coming after that and I was like what like yeah it's half people stopped coming like okay yeah and so like little by little it started to taper off and like because people always ask me like so when did how long have you been out of the church? Like when did this stop? And then like the the story I always tell is there was one time I think it was in May of if we want to be specific probably like 2018 um actually 2017 but we're getting ready to go to church and we pull out of the our parking garage at our hot our hotel apartment and pride's going on. A parade is blocking our route and we both just kind of like look at each other and we're like you turn go change and go join them. Yeah and but like it was also wild because like we get to Seattle and like I mean weed's legal and I'm like hey have you ever she's like I have and I'm like I want to and so it's like that came into perspective and I remember it was like my first happy hour. I was like they're like so what do you want to drink? I'm like a Rainier and so like I just kind of just leaned into just being there.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah because you could without the social shackles without the like kind of like how is this going to be perceived I like are are people that I know going to be there or know my history you can kind of shed all that you know you can be who you ever want to be.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

It's like a rebirth.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Yeah for sure.

Investment Banking Burnout And Getting Fired

SPEAKER_00 51:54

And so like professionally like I was doing I mean I won't name the companies but if you look at my LinkedIn you'll see it but started a company doing like I mean FPNA financial planning and analysis very typical corporate finance job. It was fine but I always wanted to do investment banking mergers and acquisitions buying and selling companies yeah and so at that point I was like okay go get a job show some growth go apply to an MBA program and then go join a bold bracket bank somewhere um but then I had some one of my friends from here actually who I had met via another friend um at the U. I didn't I I talked to on the phone about a year prior about being like hey do you guys have another analyst you need at this investment bank he's like no not at all but then we end up like golfing together on like not intentionally at all. It was like my I met this guy because his wife was working with my wife at the time and they're like oh your husband likes to golf my husband likes to golf so we end up golfing and then there's this guy who's like how the hell are you here? I'm like and and then after we get lunch he's like hey by the way we actually need someone I was like put me through the process let's do this so I end up getting this job doing the thing that I wanted to do.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Yeah yeah and they always tell I mean they made you throw away the mite or the mouse I remember the story of yours yeah yeah like it is a like investment banking is insane.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

It's like and I don't want to say like investment banking of like this is gonna sound like a little not necessarily disingenuous but like doing like mergers and acquisitions is like one of the most competitive and grinding jobs in the world especially as an analyst. Yeah. And so and I'd like taken classes and I had an internship so I kind of knew what I was doing but like they always tell you like hey you're gonna work like 90 plus hour weeks and you're like I can do it I can do whatever you want you know but you don't realize like the things you can't do.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

And so like it was all I did lived, breathed I'd be go home for Christmas I'd be working on models and doing all of the things I need to do. Like you said like they're like hey how's your Excel and PowerPoint skills I'm like pretty good they're like cool give me your mouse we'll see how good they are I'm like okay and like if you're I mean a corporate nerd sellout like me then you get you're like okay yeah he's got the hotkeys unlocked. But like anybody else are like what is wrong? Like how did you do this? What's wrong with you? And but like it was also an interesting experience because like it broke me.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

Like it broke like there I I remember having I think it breaks a lot of people and they just don't admit it to themselves. So it shows a lot of like maturity things.

SPEAKER_00 54:07

Like there was one time like I got feedback from something that I was like this isn't fair and I could feel myself like about to lose like I need a minute. Yeah so I go in this conference room and I just like like heavy breathing like tears streaming down my face and I come back 30 minutes later I'm like so what's up like we're gun or there's a time at a I was going through security to go visit my parents who are on a mission in Ohio and he's like hey by the way we have a pitch tomorrow we need a three statement model uh to project out the next five years can you do it? And I was like I'm about to get on a plane for a family trip he's like oh like okay and I I literally wasn't really asking right and I had a I had a panic attack like I was like hey I need to sit down like I this isn't well but like I hated that experience and like I saw it every hour on the clock almost on a weekly basis. And like I hated that experience but I also I loved that experience because I got to do what I wanted to do and realized it wasn't what I wanted to do. Yeah but then also it's hard for anybody to know their potential or their boundaries without experiencing that.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:06

Because now in my life I'm like oh I can't do this because I know what happens if I do that and I'm not gonna do that. I'm not gonna sacrifice part of myself just to do something as being a cog in the wheel. And so eventually I was actually fired from that job because again I also I was undiagnosed with very moderate to severe ADHD and had no idea why I just couldn't do things especially under that much stress under that much pressure blah blah blah blah blah. But then that really hit me like that messed with me because when you're so all eggs in one basket on one thing in life and it gets taken from you, your identity's gone you have no ground you have no floor and you just don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Yeah and so and to give your all yeah and then get let go. Yeah you're like that like you can't help but internalize it to feel like I fell short when I was given everything I could like if you felt like you weren't given it 100% you'd be like well kind of saw that coming.

SPEAKER_02 55:57

Dang it.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

But yeah it's tough.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

It's tough when you like feel like hey I gave my best shot yeah but you know and it was hard too because like my wife had just started a new job that I actually uh introduced her boss because someone I used to work with at my first job that I was there. And so she's like again like making the only one with an income I mean I got severance which was nice but like I I mean it was eight months of like that's pretty nice.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Because at first you're like oh I can go to the range I can go golf I can do this but then after a month you're like and you just have anxiety about like fulfilling your potential especially at this time in your life in your career. Totally like you're still that that person that feels like that's what's going to define you and you're coming off of this like gut punch of getting let go like I think there's a different time in your life where maybe you could enjoy a little time off but uh but yeah it makes sense that you were like a month of this and you're driving yourself crazy.

Returning To Utah And Leaving The Church

SPEAKER_00 56:48

And like and it was again like emotional roller coaster like I would just be unconsolable sometimes. I would be like disassociate anyway but that was like an interesting time of my life but I also am glad that I was able to experience that.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

And so when I was talking with someone I'd worked with at that place he's like I think you do well with consulting because it's not like you have 10 projects that are all these different places and tight deadlines. It's like hey just focus all on this get this done then go grab another one.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

And so I started reaching out to a couple places and ended up actually moving back to Salt Lake to work a consulting firm that we worked at together I guess we already said the name Cicero and I was wondering if you were going to leave out the name. Yeah we'll leave it well I th I can always take it out later. Oh that's true. But so I go there and it was nice because it was something that I'd always thought I also wanted to do. And so it was it was great to do that.

SPEAKER_01 57:38

It's tangential too right like it's similar in terms of like the external perception of prestige from people in the business. It's an important thing to understand yeah it's like yeah it's just similar there while the work life balance is certainly better especially at Cicero and and like more boutique consulting firms but still it's like not great. No. Like you're still working till like seven, eight nine o'clock at night a lot of times so it's you know but you needed to you needed to come down. You can't just go cold turkey no from from iBanking.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Yeah exactly but it was it was nice because like I was at this point like where I had had enough work experience where I wasn't like entry like like a junior person but I wasn't kind of like that next kind of like senior uh kind of like next stage like didn't really know what to do with me. But so I ended up starting there and it was nice because I had this transaction experience from MA where meets who's actually been on the podcast Jeff Davis and he's like hey we're starting this impact fund you've worked on deals come work with us. Yeah and I was like all right that sounds fun like I kind of had this idea of like getting into P or uh VC after that so like yeah this makes sense but it was also it also helps demonstrate like a lot of the culture of that place. Because again like I go from this this experience in Seattle where it's like hey religion doesn't define you you are whoever you want to be and I come into Cicero which is a pendulum swing the other way. Yeah for sure and with them in this group like they started like we had a Monday morning stand-up and part of the conversation was like hey what'd you learn at church yesterday? And I was like ooh like I'm not doing that and so ironically I just started showing up with a thermos of coffee and it was like eh never mind let's just get started.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

So funny as somebody who's always been an outsider like I felt a little inoculated from that. Like I like I certainly like you knew everyone there or most of the leadership was like Mormon and was going to church and stuff like that. But like I didn't feel like they felt like they needed to ask those questions because they kind of knew like they knew that Tyson wasn't involved in those things. So it's like if you're straddling those worlds like I I could see that being really hard especially coming back from you had had this experience of moving away and we didn't really talk too much about like we talked about what it meant for you work wise but like let's maybe take a second and talk about like what it meant for you like personally like what how clean was the break at that point your your wife was also Mormon like w how did you change personally more so than professionally and like did you realize that until you came back or did you kind of know coming back like this is going to be tough.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

I think it was something that I had kind of put on the back burner of like let's just ignore it for now. Yeah and like because I wasn't planning at that point to go back to I thought I was going to go back to Salt Lake but not necessarily then. Yeah but it just jobs forced my hand which in hindsight before great opportunity good job good place and great management great great ownership mentorship everything. And actually not um that's coming out but it but it was also just kind of helped me and forced my hand of being like hey like there's some things you can't ignore anymore because there'd be a lot of influence at work about church stuff because like even working there like you could I could go around like be like yes no yes no yes no yes no no yes no no no and you know who was like hey let's go grab drinks up at Seabird or let's go grab coffee at La Barba and it would and like you knew it was more of a whisper than a shout.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Like it wasn't like you know necess like I wasn't worried about getting fired because I'd go have a drink. But there was just kind of like a we're gonna have a happy hour little nudge nudge.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

And so it was it was fun to have that experience but at the same time like I was reminded of a conversation I had with my now ex-brother-in-law who actually passed away last year because he took me to lunch one time at trio and it was when I was in college having this like pendulum swing back and forth and he was active more at the time and ended up leading the church uh down the road but he was like hey like you gotta make a choice like you can't live in this middle ground and think you're gonna be like happy and like there's some tr there's truth to it there's also some nuance to it but I kind of had that voice back in my head of like hey you got to make some decisions and so that's when I took it upon myself I'm like hey we're gonna put this to bed once and for all. Yeah and so I remember just like I would go to the gym and I would sit on an incumbent bike and I would just read and think and watch and just like really find out for myself and by the end of it I was like hey like I'm out but not even just like out but like I'm not like this is like I'm done. Yeah. And it was what like the interesting experience that happened with me was I so I got out and I was like I kind of want to get a tattoo. And so I knew I was gonna get a tattoo. I was like I need to tell my mom like I don't want to blindside her with this and so I go to my mom and I'm like hey mom like I think it was my nephew's birthday or something. It might be my birthday at my sister's house. I was like hey can I talk to you for sex she's like yeah of course and so I go pull her aside I'm like hey mom just wanna let you know I'm getting a tattoo. It's gonna be a place you can see it when I'm wearing shorts it's on my thigh it's gonna be on my thigh. I didn't want to blindside you but just want to let you know and like I just hear eye just welling up with tears. And she's like hey can we get dinner and talk about this and I was like absolutely would love to chat with you about it. And so we go to Mumbai House and she comes with a computer and scriptures and talks and kind of goes on this monologue of like you know in revelations it talks with the mark of the beast and like the church was and like I kind of let her go for a minute and I've after a while I'm like hey mom listen like that's so great. Thank you so much for sharing your opinions but you have to realize like I no longer believe in this uh if you want to have a relationship with me I can't be a project I can't be something you hope's gonna come back it needs to be with me and like that's kind of like how I I need it to be and like it it's been a journey for sure and like I'm someone like my mother's a very passive aggressive person and because of which it's made me be very like uh matter of fact with her and very direct with her. Yeah. And so like there's times I'm like hey mom like that's not fair or hey like or like also being like mom like thank you so much for like treating me the way that you do. And so it's made a lot of honestly me and her relationship a lot better but also at that same time like I had to come to terms with it when like even my wife at the time when I was going through this whole faith crisis she was like hey like you are a very irritable person right now. And I was like not wrong but ouch and she's like you need to go to therapy and like up until that point my experience with therapy was very much like my parents being like hey we're gonna take you somewhere and you're gonna talk to someone it's like piano lessons. Oh yeah and like there was one time I went to this therapist and he's like hey like what do you want to talk about? I'm like nothing. Yeah he's like okay well it's not on your own terms. Right. And when he's like okay like we can sit here the whole time I'm like okay and so I sit there and just kind of stare at him and at first he's like okay but then after like 20 minutes he's like all right whatever and he just goes to his computer and starts like doing like whatever he's like yeah time's up you can go back cult to you and so those like the first time really like leaned into it understand who I am what I needed what I wanted especially with like this newfound lens of going from a world of eternities to finite life uh omniscient omniscence to uh a community of knowledge and like exploration and really kind of like fell found out who I was after all of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:28

And this was all while you were at Cicero kind of going through this. Yeah and yeah that's that behind like that's the thing it's like it's a such a good reminder of like you know we were working pretty close to together at different times and it's like you know like how often do you get that deep about someone's life that you're working with and um it's just a great reminder of like hey don't like don't make assumptions like you don't know what people are going through ever. Yeah just like you need to give people space and and best intentions you assume that they're like doing the best that they can but sometimes the best that you can is like you know it's gonna be tough.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:07

Yeah yeah and it was interesting the people who did ask questions because there was one time me no well like I'm not just gonna fault anybody for not asking like like not necessarily saying someone should but it would definitely be like a very overextension for someone to do it. For sure. And it was interesting because there was one I honestly I I won't say his name because I just can't frankly can't remember it. And he was someone who worked in a completely different practice like there's no way we would have ever like really experienced each other. But it comes up to me once like hey what are you doing for lunch today? I was like I was thinking about maybe the taco truck or this he's like can we go walk to Costa Vida I was like yeah like sure and so sure enough like it's 1145 comes he's like hey you ready to go? I was like sure so we start going he's like hey I just want to ask you like I I know that you've talked about going on a mission and being born and raised here but you're also the one leading the charge on happy hour like help me understand this. I was like oh you know used to be Mormon faith crisis don't want to believe in anymore and like to socialize and do this. He's like oh that's so interesting because he's like he's like I grew up Jehovah's Witness and I left and I had a very similar experience of being like I'm for my family there's some that still don't talk to me to this day. And it was wild because like he was so open to having that conversation like really like helped us connect. Yeah and but then there were people who were I mean some of my closest friends family that would never ever ask anything remotely close to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

And so it was interesting to have like some of those connections. I always remember that conversation with him of just like the first person who really like asked a question that I would never have expected anybody to ask.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

Yeah. And it needed to be somebody who could kind of like see their struggle in you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

You know like there were there were times like again you and you and I going back to our relationship like when we would connect on certain things and but you know like I I wouldn't have seen that I wouldn't have seen that that part of the struggle and even if we like got to a certain point it's like I wouldn't know the right questions to ask or the you know the right follow-ups to have. So I think it's again it goes back to just like never making assumptions about what other people are going through or your own ability to be able to understand those.

Grief Before COVID And A Career Reset

SPEAKER_00 1:07:06

As empathetic as you possibly can be like there might be things that you're just not gonna be able to you know you're not gonna be I'm not gonna be able to understand in a way that's like encapsulates what you're really totally and there was actually one person who helped me understand it more than any so after I had been there about like six to eight months there's this new guy that just joined he'd come from uh McKinsey he just moved back from Australia it was this guy by the name of Chris Spear and we hit it off right away because I was like hey like I used to be Mormon she's like dude I used to be Mormon yeah and he talks to me I was like well tell me about your experience because like that's one cool thing about being post Mormon is if you like it's the easiest way to automatically Be like, okay, cool, like brothers in arms. Yeah, and so I was like, So tell me about your soul. He's like, Well, I was studying at Booth, and one of the motto of Booth is to question everything, so I took it personally. Next thing I know, I'm leaving the Mormon church, and then he ended up moving back here because kids were here. Um, and kind of like Cicero's the best uh professional um continuity for him, yeah. And we, I mean, worked on projects together, we talked a lot, we went to, I mean, he was a common person at happy hour and like very open and just like a good personality. And like there was a time, it was like the an end of your review that went sideways on everybody. And like my mentor, I had like the whole year, it's like, hey, you're doing great, you're awesome, crushing it. And then like comes to like the last week, there's like, hey, I thought you would have done better. I'm like, what do you mean you thought I would have done better? Like, this is your job. Like, you're supposed to tell me what's going on. And I was super frustrated, and I go to Chris and he's like, Yeah, I was in the room, I've never really seen anything like that. I don't even know what to think of it. But he's like, I just want to let you know, like you are destined for bigger things than this. Like, this, like, don't get me, he's like, Don't get me wrong, I'm here, we're here, but like this isn't your story. Yeah, yeah. And like I took that to heart. Yeah, and then fast forward about two weeks later, I'm in a meeting and I hear a knock on a glass door, and it's uh the the CEO, the the owner of well, CEO at the time, he's like, Hey, I can talk to you for that. I was like, Yeah, of course, what's up? He's like, I just want to let you know that we've Chris was found dead in his apartment, and it appears that he had killed himself. And I instantly like, I need to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

Um, and really shook me to my core because it was someone who and it is always is, it's never the people you're like, oh, I'm kind of worried about this person, it's the people that you aren't.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

And so that was an interesting experience to say the least, and especially seeing how kind of other people dealt with that and how that was communicated. And then at the same time, had a college friend of mine passed away after like a six-year battle with cancer, and so it was like literally like within three weeks of itself, I was like, Hey, I need to take a couple days because my friend here just passed away. And then a couple weeks later, like, hey, I need to take a couple days because my other friend just passed away. And I could even see like in uh that leader's eyes, he's like, kind of like it was like this quick assignment is like, ooh, I don't like that you just did that, but you did. And but keep in mind, this is also like right before COVID hits.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Yes, yep. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The I mean one of the darkest days in my professional career, obviously, but even just like in my life was that like us finding out about Chris, and I wasn't even that close to him, but like to your point, like an amazing human being that had children, and like you just can't help but like uh you know, especially those of us that have been somewhat lucky to not be super close to a lot of death. I mean, you mentioned what could have become of your life if you had stayed with the skater crowd. And it's like, you know, if if it it it it hits for everyone and and it's traumatic for everyone, and and that you know, it it was that was a a terrible experience. And I do remember that some of the analysts yourself especially just like that had worked with him so closely. It was just like it rocks you to your core. And then to have someone else pass away and already kind of be like disenchanted, and I you know, I think just professionally speaking, this happens in in waves. It's not just a Cicero or or consulting world kind of issue, it's just like you have these seasons of your professional life and your personal life where the last thing, the last priority for you at that moment is like executing a project, yeah, meeting a deadline. Um, you know, we talked about it, like I'm I'm actually in one of those weeks of my life, and it's just like, how do I pretend like this thing that I'm doing has importance when the the things that really matter were just like so starkly shown to me. So yeah, yeah, and then right before COVID, and then COVID hits.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:48

And it's also interesting because this is the time of my life where again, going back to when we started, it's like this is when I was like, there's something else I need to be doing. Like this isn't it.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:55

Yeah, you'd already probably kind of like after that review cycle and that conversation with Chris, you're like, it's hard to like pull back. Yeah, like once the momentum starts in one direction, you're like, screw this place, or I'm not feeling valued here, or I just don't really want to be doing this job, like getting back to a point where you can do continue to do that job and do it well and do it with passion, like that rarely happens. So you probably already had this momentum towards like I gotta get out of here.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:26

Yeah, and it was like, and I mean it's one of those things, like even when you're working, that's where your mind starts to go towards, yeah. Yep, and you just feel yourself drawn to it. And again, like I remember at that time I was thinking about starting like a chopped salad place, which uh I mean, that time would have been terrible because COVID would have hit, but yes, longside probably would have done fine. But um, but yeah, that's like when my brain really started to be like, all right, so what do we want to do? Like what like there's something else you need to be doing, whether it replaces job, whether it's something on top of, something needs to be happening. And so and then at the same time like COVID hits, and like that was I mean an experience in itself. But then I mean a couple months after COVID, the consulting firm did layoffs, and like I was part of it, which is it was an interesting experience comparing the time when I was laid off before, yeah, where everything was my life. And the second one where I was like, okay, like I didn't necessarily love being there, culture was weird, and I just like didn't see myself there long. It was one of those typical, like, okay, if I can do it for this amount of time, I can get out, I can have good opportunities after this and move on. And so I was like, okay, and they're like, by the way, here's your severance. I'm like, sick, so I can just go to the gym, bike every day, sit by the pool because no one's doing anything. And so it was kind of fun for a while, but ended up getting a job working at I mean a typical tech startup in Lehigh. And I mean it was good. It was fun to go from like professional like slacks button-up shirt to like, oh, I can literally wear whatever I want.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:41

You look so good in a suit. I mean, it's actually a tragedy.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:44

Thank you. Thank you. I'll send you pictures. Um, and so it's fun to just like have an another way of like being able to be myself, but again, like this voice kept happening. And at that point, me and my uh partner at the time were like, What do we do about Salt Lake? Because she was still working for a company in Seattle working remote. I was I didn't have this job.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:03

And after I remember the desk setup, you guys were in the same room really sitting right next to each other.

Van Life Across 36 States

SPEAKER_00 1:14:07

Oh, yeah, that was wild. It was insane. In hindsight, insane. And like at that point, like when I first got laid off, I was like, hey, I can either go find a job right away. It's this weird COVID time, so no one's really hiring. I and but I also had this like kind of like joint efforts towards let's go see if we can get in an MBA program or let's see if I can go get a job. MBA program didn't work out, which in hindsight I'm glad it didn't, yeah, and got a good job and did that. But at the same time, me and her, like, hey, like, what are we doing? Like, do we want to be in Salt Lake? Is this where we want to be? We were kind of forced to be here. Is this the choice we want? And I mean, that kind of conversation popped up every now and then, but our lease was ending in 2022, and we're like, Well, we don't want to buy a house, we don't want to be here, we don't want to resign our lease. And she was like, Well, what if we just like got a van and traveled the country? And I was like, That's stupid. Tell me more. And it was like, Well, if we did, what would it be in? And where would we go? And like it literally was like, Hey, and I called her, like, it was this it was a very specific van that was like the first model. It was without the van, it wouldn't have happened. It was like a very specific van because it had like enough storage, place we could both work, and like park in a normal parking spot. And like I found one in Dallas, and I was like, babe, like it's a go or no go. We're going to Dallas. And so next thing I know, we're putting a deposit down. We fly into Dallas and we drive it back, and we both travel the country for six months working remote. I mean, 36 states, six months, but like, and it's it was a very intentional.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:30

Yeah, did you have to do someone and how did you have that mapped out? Like, I I love people that do this. I mean, we could this blows my mind. I couldn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:38

It was like, where do we want to go? Yeah. And like, and it was like, oh, I want to go see the Redwoods, I want to go to Yosemite, I want to go see Rainier and uh go through uh Banff and go to Glacier, and I mean it was just kind of like literally just going down a list and putting in a spreadsheet and then putting it in order of like how we'd hit it. And so we're like, hey, and like, but also like the whole impetus was where you let's go see if we can find somewhere we want to live long term.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:01

And you were both still working full-time. You'd started a new job and she was still working in full time.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

And but it was fun because because like I mean we can get into the details of like all the van trip, but it would like it's cool, but it's also just details.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

Travel log.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:13

But like it was fun because it was the first time in my life where like the first time.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:17

I'm more interested in the themes of like what it meant for you, what it yeah.

Divorce And Redefining Success

SPEAKER_00 1:16:20

And because it was fun because it was the first time in my life, especially professional life, where it's like, hey, let's fill in our day with the things we want to do. We're in South Dakota, so we're gonna go to um uh Badlands National Park, and then then we're gonna go to uh the cowboy mall, and we're gonna like so it's like, okay, let's do this at this time. Cool. Then we'll get like we have meetings we have to schedule around, and then more often than not, we'd end up throwing a movie on the projector and we'd be sitting on our laptops wrapping up other things we needed to do. And so it's fun to be able to be like, oh, I'm gonna prioritize the things I want to do compared to things that other people want me to do. And ironically, like I got promoted during it. Like things were going really well for everything else in my life. And there was a couple like there was I mean, it's it's such a fun experience because when most people travel, it's like, hey, I'm gonna fly here, experience this, and then I'm gonna go back. But you don't get to see, like, oh, here's how the mountains turn into the the plains, here's how the accents start to change, here's all the foods of like the in-betweens, or like just kind of how it all comes together. And so that was a fun experience. But then also looking at all these places, we would see be like, could we live here? And for most parts, like, no. Like, I remember driving through West Texas with the van. I was like, get me out of here. This is terrifying. Like, it's there's nothing going on, and like with a lot of the things I would see, it's like, oh, like there's not a good economy, and it's not looking like anything's gonna go a lot better. No one's moving here, there's no jobs, there's no one on my age, it's hard to get in and out of. Like the places that we thought of the most like the one that we thought of the most was Bend, Oregon. Because we're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Because like for people who don't know Bend, very similar to Sun Valley, uh, small town, lots of outdoors, both summer and winter. Beer culture, beer culture, and just everyone's like a very big participant of life. Yeah, and like that was a place because we had been there before, but so we're like, oh, we'll just pass through. We end up spending a week there because we're like, this is amazing, but it's hard because like there's no main freeway, there's no main airport, it's hard to get in and out of. Yeah, and so eventually, yada yada yada, six months later, we're walking down the uh mall in Washington, DC, and I looked at and I was like, I'm really excited to go home. Like, I'm excited to go back to Salt Lake, like I appreciate it so much more now. It's clean, there's so much opportunity, there's nice people, there's a lot of optimism in the air, and just made me appreciate things a lot more. And so start the trek back, and then we get back, and like I mean, it's a lot of time together in such a small place makes us uh address things that we had, I mean, put under like for example, we're always like, Hey, let's have kids in three years when we first get married, and then three years, and then three years, and then three years. And by the end of it, we're like, hey, like, let's is this the right thing for us? Not saying I hate you, not saying anything, and then eventually kind of start this journey of like what does this mean for us, and eventually make the decision to go our separate ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

And you guys started those conversations on the trip.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:02

Yeah, for sure. Because like I enjoyed it more than she did, and there were times she's like, I can't do this. Like, cool, let's turn around. That's the best part about this. Like, we're not beholden to anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

We can go wherever we want to. And when she's like, No, we started this, let's keep going. We might cut it a little short because we were gonna eventually go from DC all the way down to the Florida Keys and back. But then she's like, Let's go back. I'm like, Yeah, that makes sense. This is it's it's a trek.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:22

Oh, yeah. And and so there's like a conversations along the way that we would have that I mean just helped us like focus, like just address a lot of things that we didn't know we'd needed to address. And then so we come back, um, we're living up in Oakley at her dad's house and having a lot of like very frank conversations, and by the end, it's like, hey, like, I don't think we're the right things for each other for the rest of our lives. Yeah, and that's not to say like I don't regret the relationship, I don't think she's a bad person. I love that we have this great experience to uh cap our relationship of this great six months of traveling the country and having these experiences together, but we realized that we had very different ethos in life and what we wanted to have and capture and because again, like that's what I was gonna ask.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

Is it like was it like value system oriented? Because a lot of people that like do fall away from the church, like that's it's a new growth trajectory, and some people like go one way versus the other. Uh you said ethos, um, or was it more just like interests and compatibility from like a day-to-day logistical perspective? Uh like how what do you think was really the driving wedge and and kind of how did you come to recognize that?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:30

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be a lot of how we wanted our lives to go, what happiness meant, what like success meant. Um, because when we first met each other, we were very much still somewhat Mormon. I mean young. I mean, I was 25 when we got married, she was 22.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:48

And so I think we didn't even know who we were at that point. And then we go through this existential crisis, oh not existential crisis, faith crisis, and find ourselves on the other side, find out who we are more because that tends to force the hand of like exploration. Who are you?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:00

What is this without this for sure pillar in your life? It's a fork in the road. Exactly. And you either grow to gro together or you can grow separ grow apart a little bit. It's it and for you, it sounds like you mentioned that like for the first time in your life you got to do what you wanted to do, and that it was uh being reflected in kind of like your professional life that like you were also being successful there. But the different definitions for success, like you had moved away from some very type A industries. Yeah. You were in eye banking, you were in consulting. How did your definition of success change? Like, what was it that you felt like um changed for you there?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:41

I mean, I think honestly, like one that helped a ton was being diagnosed with ADHD. Of cause like there was a fork in the road where I was like, I even went to the doctor and I was like, hey, I have a hypothesis for you. Hear me out. I was like, it's really hard for me to focus, get things done, like start, finish, start, finish. I've abused Adderall in college. I know what that feels like. I think I have ADHD, but I want to get your perspective on this. Because if I I'm not here asking you for Adderall, I just want to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

It's like, okay, let's do this questionnaire. I take the questionnaire and I comes back, he's like, it's like, all right, so take this tomorrow when you start working. Text me how it goes. So I'm like, all right, cool, go to the gym. Like, all right, here we go. And then I start working like, oh my, like, yeah, it was like just open up my brain as far as everything, like all of a sudden it's like, oh, like you're middle of the ground, like, oh my gosh, you're amazing, everything you're doing is great. And I was like, okay. And then also the van helped a ton because it helped me realize that you don't necessarily have to conform to everything to have the outcomes you want to. And so being able to say, like, hey, I operate differently. Yeah, let me do it the way I'm gonna do it. And if things aren't working, we can have a chat. But if it is, like, stay out of my way. Yeah, and so it's fun to have like being able to kind of be again like this lone wolf of saying, I'm gonna do things the way that I want to do them. They're gonna be different than the way that you look, but it's gonna work. And so it's been fun in not having that experience and um recognizing that myself, where even when I went through the interview process for like the day job I have now, I'm like, hey, by the way, I'm not not gonna work at the same place from nine to five. Sometimes it's not even gonna be nine to five.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

Also have a podcast that I record during the day, um, and just kind of tell them like my working style. And this is like, yeah, as long as things are getting done, like, do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:22

And so I think realizing that about myself, which then started this whole like snowball effect of self-exploration and and being my true self.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:30

Um, and again, like giving my self, especially like post-separation divorce, of again finding myself again in a world of my own white space, yeah, and being able to figure out what that means. Cause I'd never lived alone, I'd never been in a space alone, I'd never really dated in like outside of college as like an adult. So it was fun to have these experiences that I I championed and really took like one of my tattoos I have on my th thigh is a grim reaper sickle with like a hand cut off. And to me, it's uh cheating death or a second chance at life. And so I always knew it during this process. I'm like, I'm not gonna take this for granted. Most people don't get this opportunity. I'm gonna lean into this and and make it my own experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:08

Yeah. And yeah, it's so funny. We've talked about a couple of like really clear inflection points for you, like your mission, uh joining the the fraternity, uh, going to Seattle, coming home, and then now kind of that co post-COVID trip and and ending it it ends up in a divorce. Like you've lived a lot of lives, like you've lived a you've had a lot of inflection points. Um and they've all led you kind of like to a higher level of personal self-understanding. Um is that do you feel like that is your most recent biggest inflection point? Have you hit something like I i I think we're getting close to kind of finishing out your story? So like you got a divorce that was in 2000.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:56

2020 uh January 2023.

Starting The Podcast And Feeling The Click

SPEAKER_01 1:24:59

2023. So it was just a couple years ago, a few years ago now. Like do you feel like you've hit you're hitting another inflection point? Has one been recently in the rear view, or are you at more of a uh uh homeostasis where you feel like you know maybe the the inflection points are yet to come, maybe they're further down the road because you have you've done a lot of self-discovery. Um because it feels like some of those inflection points were turmoil out of like real personal discovery, and now that you know who you are a little bit more, you might be in a more state of consistency, or do you just feel like no, some of these things are externally driven and like life is gonna come at you and you just have to be ready to react? So there were four questions in there. That was a terrible job as an as an interviewer, but no, I got them all.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:52

And so I'd say the next inflection point was the podcast itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:55

Because again, so I go, so I had this idea, I had everything buttoned up, packaged up before I did the van. It was literally a fork in the road of like, do we do a van trip or do it do we that or do I do this? Pick the van, come back, get divorced, move out, move in with my friend, and all of a sudden this voice comes back. It's like, hey, remember that? And I was like, oh shit, that's right. The voice keeps coming back. And I remember again the day, finger hovering above the Amazon button, click order, this like$800 order of equipment, and it shows up. And I'd like talk to a couple people, I'm like, hey, I'm starting this podcast, we'd like to interview you. And it's actually the first episode I recorded, which was George and Charlie Cardin here at Edison House, and we sit down to record, and it was like this punch in the face of like, Oh, what am I doing? No, this is it, like this is the next step. Like it was like, because I love talking to people, I love understanding what makes them tick, I love hearing stories, and so it's so fun to have that. And every side, every single time I record, no matter what, I always have that feeling.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:49

And especially like this form of like gaining a friend or camaraderie. Because like I always hate the term networking. Fuck networking. Yeah, I like making friends, and if there's something we can do professionally that makes sense, cool. Um and so that was the one, and I just kept chasing and chasing it. And but then it was like also kind of forced me to be my authentic self, yeah, which brought the right people into my life, which brought the right opportunities into my life, and so started this flywheel of like the authentic me that I needed to be. And then, which ironically brought me to uh la this past no two December ago, I kind of got I I had seen the writing on the wall that there's gonna be a layoff. It was like the third one at the company, and I kind of like looked out, I was like, I'm probably gonna be a part of this. And I'd like kind of been looking at other jobs, but it was so easy, and you know how to do it. That's like so hard to leave, and I get laid off. And it was it was wild because again, going from this experience when I was in Seattle where it shook my core, I didn't know who I was, I was beside myself, and then this time I was like, Okay, cool. Anyway, yeah, yeah, yeah. I got stuff I gotta do, like, yeah, like like move aside. Yeah, and so it was fun to like, like you said, of like I was no longer this ship at sea in all this turmoil. I was like, Oh, I have this foundation, I know who I am, I know what to do, I trust myself, and I can do this. I had like a really good friend, uh Maddie Bullock, who I used to work with at that company, and then we've become really good friends. And she like during this process, she's like, I am like wildly proud of how well you're dealing with all of this, and also like doing the right things, like you're not just being like ignoring it all, but you're tackling it, but also keeping a good head on your shoulders. I'm like, Yeah, it's like it's fine, like I know it's all gonna work out. Yeah, and so it's it's been fun to see and have these points in it all where because of the work I've done, the uh in the introspection of like my therapist called like one time when I first started meeting with her after the divorce. She's like, You are like intimidatingly introspective. I was like, I don't know what that means. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's something.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:41

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:41

And so it's fun to see how much all of this work within the last like seven, eight years like starts to manifest itself. Yeah, and so I would say the podcast was the last time starting it and like I mean continuing to do it because it's taken different uh evolutions has been one, but then also I realized it's not the end. Like I and I always try to keep uh an ear out for that voice that started this of like what is next, where do we go from here? Like I've been honestly like been driven towards like music and I don't know what to do with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:10

Yeah, you had mentioned that that like you're like, do you do you play an instrument?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:14

I mean, I like can play the piano pretty well. I took voice lessons in high school.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:18

Um well you gotta if you're gonna be the star of the play.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:21

Yeah. High school musical. It was actually. Um but so there's there's something. Yeah, yeah. And like I'd be naive to say I know what it was, but I would be um lack the intuition nor maturity to say that there's nothing else.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:38

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, I mean, you're young enough. There's gonna be plenty of forks in the road for sure. But it it's so interesting. To hear how um, you know, a lot of those are externally driven, and you you but you will probably experience other internally uh created crises, but like the fact that you've kind of come through and because of these different seasons of life that you've had, that you're able to just say, okay, like it that that is what it is, everything's gonna be fine. I think some of it's just like I've done this before, but a lot of it's like the introspection stuff where it's like it's not just that I've done this before, but I know that the person I am can handle whatever's thrown at me. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:22

And and that takes a lot of time, repetition. Yeah. Because like there's so many experiences in life that until you have enough at bats, you can't have that confidence. Yeah, and so like one that I like to give people is like some people be like, Oh, I I can't start dating until I fix this, or I can't I really need to work on them. Like some of these experiences that you're trying to have can only be dealt with in those situations.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:44

You have to do it, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:45

And so thankfully, I've been given enough at bats with a lot of these, and but also like put myself in charge and not waited for them. Like, I'm always someone who's pretty act, I mean, um action-driven. Like one proactive, it's better reactive. Uh my stepdad's dad gave so he was uh in church leadership and he would always give these cards to people. And there's a quote from uh church leader Le Grand Richards where it's for every problem under the sun, there is a remedy or there is none. If there is one, hurry and find it. If there is none, never mind it. And so for me, it's always been like if there's a problem that I want solved, I need to go do something. If there's not, I'm not gonna give it my time and attention. Yeah, and so a lot of people say like time heals all wounds, which is bullshit. Like you heal your wounds and sudden like the time's gonna pass. It might happen in 10 years, but if you give it the attention and focus it needs, it might take two or five. Yeah, and so thankfully the work heals the wounds.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:34

It's just sometimes the work takes a little bit of time.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:36

Correct. So it's I'm like grateful for all the experience I've had. I wouldn't change anything. I'm excited for the future, I have the confidence to tackle it. Will it be easy? Probably not. Yeah, but I look forward to it. That's awesome.

Authenticity Over Networking For Guests

SPEAKER_01 1:31:49

And uh now I like now that we've talked a little bit about the podcast and we've talked about some of the like grand themes of what it's meant for your life, I am just like genuinely interested in like the some of the like how, like, how does this happen? How do you like you hate networking, but clearly, like, in order to get this many guests to have this many episodes, like some of it is just like I talked to so-and-so, and uh, you know, I asked them at the end of the episode, like, who would you want to see on the on the podcast? Half of the people probably mentioned somebody that they know. Like, how do you build this network of contributors? And how do you find the you know, how do you find these people? How do you go about asking them? What's the reception been like? What's the general reception been like? I'm just so curious about the some of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:37

I think the biggest thing has been authenticity for me. Yeah. Because like, even going back to when I was trying to make investment banking and consulting work, I would go put on my work face and show up at work.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:47

And where now in my life, the thing I try to do is whether you see me at a work meeting or see me on the street or see me anywhere, uh, you're gonna see the same person. I'm not gonna try to put on these faces or explain things or try to um be the person that you want me to be. I'm gonna be me. If you don't like it, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:04

This is a complete tangent, but very like what's so interesting there is like going back to your childhood and like your ability to be a shape shifter between groups and like being that chameleon, um, that can also be really authentic. Like you can have different parts of your personality and different personas that you want to show people, but it can be also really inauthentic where it's like I've got to go to this job that I don't really I'm not feeling, and I'm not feeling the people I work with, and so you have to put on this face. Like, I don't really have a question there, but that that seemed like a really interesting parallel that like you've found the opportunity in the space to be an authentic chameleon and and be able to engage with people. Um, you're you're probably more the same Eric every time you engage with people now, but like you know how it is to put on a part persona and like ask them about questions that are unrelated to previous guests and unrelated to things you're pursuing in your life. So again, not really a question there, but just something interesting that I kind of am connecting. Like, how do you connect the the little the little boy that was shifting between groups to like the man you've become? That's the question, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:17

Go back to my going back to my dad for a minute. So my dad and I like I did not have a great father. I mean, he's passed away, that's fine. Like, but I'm also have to face the fact that I am he is half of me.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:31

And like one thing about him is he was a master manipulator. And I see that and I see how I could use of how I connect with people to manipulate people, but it's great power, but great responsibility. Thank you, Peter Parker. But I turn it on its head and I make it a way to connect with people, yeah. And I like because again, like my background is so ununique or unique and eclectic eclectic that I can usually connect with someone in some which way. And it's usually through metaphors and similes and comparisons and connecting, and I'm always the person who's willing to stick my neck out and be myself and tell them the story. And I think we live in a world where authenticity can sometimes be shunned or eschewed, but the people that can do it in the right way and do it in a true way, they're rewarded for it. And so that's where I found a lot of success in it is like, hey, like this is who I am. I know I can connect with people, I know I can talk to people. I am driven by this. There isn't something like even when I started the podcast, it wasn't like, all right, so I'm gonna make this business, and if I can make driven of this much uh revenue, and then I can exit for this or get a partnership, like, no, the whole thing I saw as success is like I want to have conversations with cool people, yeah. And so when it's like that was my definition of success, and I got it, then it just helped create this launch pad for more of it. And then once people started to see that it was just me interviewing people and letting people be themselves, and like there's so many people I recorded with like, I didn't think we're gonna have that conversation. Like, that was I didn't even realize that stuff about myself. I'm like, hey, like, and it and again, like all these people that I interview, like we become friends, like not everybody, but it's not like, hey, by the way, I'm trying to do this marketing blah blah like this is not like business jargon or like sitting around with a beer in your hand with a name tag on your chest at an awkward bar. Yep, it's now just like, oh, I just make friends and there's things that we can do together, and I'd rather do cool stuff with my friends than go do cool stuff with people I don't want to work with.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:20

Interesting. Yeah, I think the tearing down the walls, being genuine, authentic, being kind of giving people permission to to feel safe because you're you're you're kind of like giving them your true self and uh uh going back to this like self-discovery theme. Like, I don't I don't think you're ready to do that at uh none of us are ready to do that at a certain age. Um but I certainly think that like some people are better at just connecting, but the the authenticity of it and the the quality and and ability of this show to be successful, like I don't think you could have done it seven years ago. No, not at all. You know what I mean? Like it just you wouldn't have had the the self-confidence, like I mean as the interviewer, I'm like, oh man, this is gonna be I was sweating it because it's like I've gotta you know, I I need to connect, I need to like make this a good show for Eric, I want to do well for him, and it's like to be the one that says, I'm gonna put my name on this and I'm gonna put this out there, and it's unexpected, like that takes some some cojones.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:24

Yeah, so it's fun. I'm proud of you, man. Thanks, man. It means it means something coming from you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:30

I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:31

It it's but it's like also weird too, like going out like because I my life is very like entrenched in like one path. Like, I have my house, come to Edison, I work, I work out, I record, and there's a few other places I go, but then every like I always step out of that to go do things, and like I remember the first person that came up and be like, Hey, you're the podcast guy. I was like, What? What do you mean? Because like I mean I post things, I see how many people view them, listen to them, whatever. But and so it's fun to have people authentically be like, Hey, like, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:58

Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:59

And I'm like, You're well, like this is like it's not just for me, it's for everybody. Yeah, like it's a community. It's it's it's never been like there's I mean, I could go name 50 billion podcasts at it's about them. Yeah, yeah. And I I mean, I love this place, I love the people that are doing it. I I mean I could do something that's bigger or like more uh I mean, like more of like a small fish in a big uh big fish in a small pond, or this is so much more of a small big fish in a wow. This is so much more of a small fish in a big pond than a big fish in a god fucking damn it. This is so much more of a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. Like I could go try to be like a mass podcast. Like, I don't like that. I like being in my community, the people I can interact with.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:41

Yeah, just like show what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:42

What are you gonna talk about?

Building Community And Dream Guests

SPEAKER_01 1:38:43

You know, like and people do that with sports and entertainment and and uh you know whatever is popular at the time. But I think to your point, this is community. Like you're doing it about a space, and so yeah, your audience is going to likely always be somewhat limited by geography of what you're what you're talking about, but like I think the things that you talk about are really human and are applicable if you live anywhere in the country. Like people could listen to this and be like, oh, that's like how Salt Lake City is creating community, but that doesn't mean that we couldn't do it in Fort Wayne, Indiana. We couldn't do it, you know what I mean? Like, um, I think there are so many things that are unique about Salt Lake and our state. Um, but I think sometimes we talk about them like they're like entirely alien. Yeah. And it's like, nah, people are people, like there's cliques in other communities, there's overriding uh religion or uh political affiliation or any other thing that creates in-groups and outgroups just anywhere else. Yep. Um, and I think what makes this actually pretty a universal conversation is that it's just like, no, we're talking about like people doing things in their community, and that happens everywhere in the world. So it's a human experience, yeah, for sure. Well, man, I didn't expect to get there.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:03

Here we are. But no, it's it's been fun. I I I love everything it's become. It's been fun. Like an on and where do you see it going? I don't know. Like, I do like I'm to the point where I need help. Like I can only do so much. That's obvious. Like, I do want, and if you're listening to this and you want to help, please slide in the DMs, text, email, whatever. But like I do want to I do want to create uh a place where people can interact more. I see that being like a Discord channel. Also want to do more events with people. I want to bring people together more. I had some help before, but just nothing that was reliable or um uh consistent. So that's where I want to do more of is bringing people together because I mean there's a loneliness epidemic, there's people who want to interact with the community, meet more people, but don't necessarily know the medium for that. Yep. Um, but then at the same time, like just keep doing the things that I love. Like it's there's very few conversations I like. I think there's been more than a handful where I've gone and been like, I don't know, this might be good, this might be bad, I don't know. Yeah, and then I'm like, wow, that was actually way better than I thought it was gonna be. Yeah, and so as long as I get to keep having that experience, that works for me. Everything else is is a cherry on top, sugar on top, whipped cream, whatever you want to call it. And so it's it's been fun. And as people keep listening and and keep supporting it, then I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:21

Well, you've had some heavy hitters on, so I mean me at just the top of that list.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:26

We got some fun ones coming up. Awesome. I got some heavy hitters that we're we're scheduling with right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:32

I'm excited. Well, I mean, I feel like I'm wrapping your podcast for you. So is there anything else? You're the host on this one. Who would you like to see next on the podcast? I want to remember that question you asked too. That's the only one I read. Other than the ones that you have lined up.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:50

As of right now, I mean it's like I'd say it's thematic in that it's the people who could live anywhere, but they choose to be here. So I mean, like the easiest low-hanging fruit on that one's like postmalone, of being like, listen, you are an A-list celebrity that was easily recognizable anywhere in the world with What's this Benson Boone? Yeah, Benson Boone. But backflipping Benson Boone, he'd be a fun one, especially like I know he's had his own unfaith crisis and yeah and all of that. So I'd say like those people are the ones for me where it's like, hey, like, why here? Like there has to be something that brings you here. Yeah. So what is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:20

Um I don't know your whole catalog. Have you had Ty Borrell on yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:42:24

I'd love to.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:24

So that that type of same celebrity is uh obviously something that draws a lot of people in, but there's also to your, you know, I'm sure you were gonna be able to.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:33

Like he's never really talked about like why he moved here from Oregon to go start like buy uh bar bet bar X and have beer bar, and then all of a sudden just like be he's very involved in the community. Yeah. So uh yeah, it's it's those type of people where I'm like, you could be anywhere, why here? Yeah, and why what makes you want to get a few more than that?

SPEAKER_01 1:42:49

And a lot of those people aren't famous, and you've had a lot of those people on, but I think those are some of the more engaging conversations about like why did you choose here? We talked about how provincial Salt Lake can be, and it's like you know, the people that have grown up here and came back, like you know, we we moved away and came back because of family, and we wanted to raise a family around our parents and stuff like that. Like great stories, like I love my story, but it's that's a pretty obvious story.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:16

Like Salt Lake in Utah in general is a very much a boomerang place to be. Like I remember when I was growing up, I would see these people And a boomerang people place to be. And because I always see these people like graduate from college and move and be like, Oh my gosh, you did it, you escaped. Yeah, yeah. And they'd come back like, What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:43:29

What are you? Why did you do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:30

But then like you see, I mean, myself and other people, you where it's like, Oh, you came back. And it's like, yeah, have you seen this place? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:37

I mean, trust me, I felt that way a lot of times. Yes. There's been a lot of crises along the way where you're like, man, I'm really back here. Um, but the but then there's also times when you're like, What you know, of course I'm here. Like again, the family component is huge, but also just like access to outdoors and um and the people are are lovely and wonderful. And so it's just, yeah, there's you know. Again, is that unique to Salt Lake? Not necessarily. Um, but I think that there's I think that there's a a center of gravity to where people have been come from, and especially if their family is still there, like you realize as you get older how important family can be, whether it's the family that you were born with or the family that you chose. Um but going back to your point about like in in Seattle, kind of being able to become who you wanted to become, there's real value in that too. And I I wonder if the people that do come here and end up staying is because they came at the right point in their life when they made they made the friends that kind of reflected who they had become versus who they were. And and those can be the things that I think are hard for me sometimes, is like ref uh, you know, am I being reflective or is my life reflective of the person that I've become and the person I want to be? Or is it just that I've fallen into the habits of like, well, these are my friends when I was a kid, they're still my friends today, and I s and I see them. And I think moving away gives you that perspective, and you can cut people from your life, and not in a in a curt or or mean way, but just like Yeah, just because they're not it just because they don't have a seat at your table doesn't mean you don't want them to eat. Yes, exactly. And so it's like, oh, the the people that I've chosen to maintain those relationships with, it's because they still are giving me what what I need, and I hopefully am giving them what they need at this point in their life versus just shared history.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:31

Well, and like and there's a beauty in that shared history. Like I have uh so I have a group of friends, we have a group chat. We I mean it's like my golf, I call them like my golf friends, but it's like with my high school friends, pretty divided down the middle. Uh half of us aren't Mormon anymore, half of them are. Yeah, all but three of us have kids. Um and it's interesting because I used to get so annoyed hanging out with them because it'd be like, oh, remember high school, remember this, like, yo, I'm such a different person, or like that's so long ago. But then I kind of turn it on its head over the last few years. I'm like, you guys are the only people that were there. Yeah, we're the only people that can understand this, yeah, and people I can talk to about it. So there's there's people that you cut off intentionally, there's the people that just I don't I only have so much time.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:09

Yeah, life goes such separate ways, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:11

But like if there's people that I haven't talked to in five years, and if they called me and said uh my tire blew out and I've you're the only person to answer, it'd be like, give me 10 minutes. Yep. So it's it's it's all growth, and again, and like the timing of everything, like there's so much, there's such a nice appreciation of things of the timing coming to your life when you need to, and like people, and then some people stick around for a season, some people stick around for a reason, and some people stick around forever.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:35

Yeah. I mean, we might as well just the outro for this should be the Paz Lerman wear sunscreen song. Do you remember that song from oh yeah? I mean, you're a little younger than I am, so maybe you don't remember, but that was a hit. That was a banger. So all right, man. Well, I don't know. I'm out. What else you got?