S2, E7: Brendan Nicholson - Momentum Climbing Gyms

What happens when a lifelong climber with an artist’s eye and a designer’s brain gets the keys to build the gyms he always wished existed? We sit down with Momentum Climbing’s creative director, Brendan Nicholson, to chart the leap from medical illustration to route setting and full-scale wall architecture—and why a great climb should feel like a choreographed dance you can’t wait to repeat.

Brendan pulls back the curtain on how routes are crafted for flow, safety, and satisfaction. He explains the three dials that shape difficulty—wall angle, hold size, and distance—then shows how observation and iteration keep problems fair, challenging, and fun. We revisit the 48-hour redesign that transformed Momentum Millcreek, follow the ground-up build in Lehi, and explore the bold push into Texas, where an indoor-first culture is raising the bar for training and could spark the next generation of champions.

We also unpack Momentum’s micro gym model at Trolley Square: compact footprints with excellent route setting, smart LED walls for dense variety, real strength and cardio zones, and thoughtful recovery with sauna and cold plunge. It’s a distilled version of the big-box climbing gym designed to fit into daily life, turning short sessions into full practices and communities into hubs of problem solving, coaching, and connection.

From American Fork’s role in sport climbing history to Salt Lake City’s rise as a national competition hub, this conversation blends local roots with national momentum. Whether you’re a first-timer, a focused boulderer, or a routesetter at heart, you’ll leave with a sharper eye for design and a deeper appreciation for the people who shape the climbs we love.

If this conversation sparked ideas or sends you hunting a new project, tap follow, share it with your crew, and leave a quick review. Your support helps more climbers find us and keeps these stories on the wall.

50% Off Minky Couture Blankets: softminkyblankets.com/SMALLLAKECITY

Use cod TROLLEY26 for 30% off a day pass at momentumclimbing.com/trolleysquare/reservations

Please be sure to like, review, follow, subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and family! See you next time 

Transcript

Meet Brendan Nicholson

SPEAKER_02 1:14

What is up, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City Podcast. I'm your host, Eric Nielsen, and this week we are talking with Brendan Nicholson. Now, Brendan is the creative director for Momentum Climbing Gyms. So if you've ever been there, he's the one that set the routes that either you love doing every single time or the ones that frustrate you that you can't figure out. Now, his journey started off with him going to school, being a creative designer, starting off as a medical illustrator until approach to help with the design of the Mill Creek Gym. Now, fast forward, and he's been designing gyms all around the country, including the most recent ones in Fort Union and in Trolley Square. So great conversation of how he thinks about building gyms, uh, what's to come and what that makes him excited. So let's jump into it and hear from Brendan.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Oh, the pad looks like something you'd make beats with in a biza.

SPEAKER_03 2:04

I know you can see like I've actually ironically done a lot of random um side quests and side tangents, and like I kind of want to like, because I have this like like I've been listening to myself of like what I want to do and like kind of chase the path, which is like part of what this is. But then there's like kind of like what's next? And part of it's been like this musical crave of getting into something musical again. And then something like, oh look at it like like because like that's called like a my dye, like M IDI. Yeah, MIDI. Yeah, MIDI. And like I'm always looking them like there's been more than a handful in my Amazon card at one point. I'm like, no one one one side quest at a time. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

You can only pursue so many hobbies. Oh, I know. I know that.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Oh, I mean, because it sounds like you do a little bit of everything from run, ski, bike, climb, like the ultimate Utah.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, born and bread.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

And it's like interesting, like, because for me, for example, like I so I have a girlfriend who's not from here, and she's very like involved in running um clubs and communities, but it's funny whenever I go with her because people are always like, oh, where are you from? I'm like, oh, I'm from here. Like, what? Like, what do you mean you're from? You're like, yeah, born and ranked like I'm in Utah. It's like, oh, we never meet anybody from here. But there's like the people that come here for that, and so they love to lean into it. And like a lot of my like core high school friends like aren't like that Utah person. And so it's fun to see people from here that truly love and appreciate it, don't have to leave and then come back. Or maybe that is part of your story. Who knows?

Utah Roots And Outdoor Culture

SPEAKER_00 3:28

Yeah. No, I just left for high school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Where did you go for high school?

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Uh ski school out in Colorado. Oh no, what? So, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

Is it similar to like um like winter school in Park City where you get winters off and then go to school to rest? Yeah. Was that was that the dream in high school? Go to the Olympics or go to something similar?

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh the important part about being a transplant to Utah is just like never mention what you do or how hard you do it because there's always somebody in the room who's doing it harder.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yes. And it's yeah, I've I've gotten humbled by that in more than my own fair share of ways. And it's it's like because like I grew up skiing a lot. Like that was like my outdoor shtick. And like I knew I wasn't like great. Like a lot of my friends that I ended up skiing with ended up I mean, traveling the world skiing and being those people. Yeah. And so like and like it was I was never the person to be like, I can hang. I was always like, I'll watch, like I can, it's not like I can't hit the jump, hit the rail, do whatever, but I'm not going as hard as everybody else. But then, like, as I because like I'm a runner, like I road run, trail run, used to bike more, but then kind of similar thing, realized I had way too many hobbies and was like, all right, pick three. Because if you don't, if you try to do all of them, you're not gonna do any of them well. Yeah, and so really stuck to golf and running. And but then even like when I run, I'm like, every time I'm like, I'm I know I'm doing good and I can get to like a lot of work, I can a lot of distancing or whatever. And then all of a sudden I go running with a friend and they're like, Are you coming? Yeah. So a little bit of learning, but it's it's fun. I like because I too left for left from Utah for mission, came back for college, went back to Washington for three or four years after graduating, and then did lived in a van for six months traveling the country to be like, is this really what I want to be? And then it really wasn't until I came back from that where like I remember the first time I drove from Salt Lake to St. George, like I was leaning over the steering wheel and was just like, oh my God, like this is so beautiful. Look at these mountains, look at everything, and like was able to have this like almost like childish view of it again for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Oh yeah. Gives you an appreciation for sure. Totally.

Growing Up In Early Climbing Gyms

SPEAKER_03 5:27

So I'm excited. So Brendan Nicholson from Momentum, he's been there for like 15 years, if I remember correctly. If you've ever been there and climbed there, you've probably put your hand or foot on something that he's placed there himself, the the brain child behind creating it all. So I'm excited to talk about it all because there's so much to do with I mean Utah and rock climbing and also just how momentum's been kind of there along the way.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

Well, thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

No, absolutely. But I mean, I mean, kind of just starting from the top. I mean, talking how you got into like rock climbing specifically.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Lifelong rock climber, family friends were some of the pioneers of the Little Cottonwood Canyon climbing scene. So as soon as I could walk, I was definitely climbing on top rope in Little Cottonwood. Um, but pretty much a gym rat from as soon as I could be just growing up in the gyms of Salt Lake. Nice. Uh one of those first ones would be like Rock Creation, and then the front started.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

Because Rock Creation was one off like 33rd.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Yeah, Rock Creation is in the Black Diamond campus. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Oh, great memories from Rock Creation.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

I know that just hit like because I remember now, like, you know, like when the thing that helps me the most with that is like you walk past someone, they're wearing like a cologne or a perfume, you're like, like, oh, that was like my girlfriend from high school, or like something like that.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

Like stinky shoes.

SPEAKER_03 6:43

Like I re lots of stinky shoes.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Stinky shoe uh cologne. Yeah, from Rock Creation.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

I can't even think of like probably with like two or three birthday parties there growing up. But that was like the rock climbing gym before rock climbing gyms were rock climbing gym.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

It was a staple. Yeah. We call those ones um climbing gym 1.0. Yeah, yeah. You know, with the the uh teva rubber shoe floor or pea gravel, some of them. And then like uh, you know, sculpted concrete walls that are all uneven and stuff and uh no volumes or anything that makes sort of a a major rock climbing gym these days.

SPEAKER_03 7:17

So if you were gone for high school, was this during college that you started climbing a lot? Or you'd like I guess you said you're pretty much like grew up there. So I imagine it was before that and then went away and then came back. And I mean, did you pick up climbing when you came back, or just was it been something that's been always been in the background of your life?

SPEAKER_00 7:31

Aaron Powell It's been in the background for sure. Uh it definitely took a little bit of a backseat to skiing there for a bit, but came back for college and climbed hard. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:51

I mean, at that point, did you think about kind of marrying the two together with a career? Or do you just No, I had no idea.

From Medical Illustration To Routes

SPEAKER_00 7:57

It came in from left field. I didn't even know that you could really make it work that way. Uh when I first met up with Jeff, I was a medical illustrator up at the University of Utah, and that was my first job right out of right out of college. I went from the university to the university. Aaron Powell Medical Illustrator? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:14

What does that even mean?

SPEAKER_00 8:16

It's visualizing anything that uh needs uh visual for anybody on on campus. So we work from tiny little uh molecule representations to huge uh genetic studies. Aaron Powell Okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

That sounds less boring than I had it in my head. I just had to imagine it being like almost just like pamphlet of I don't know, just like milk.

SPEAKER_00 8:37

Lots of pamphlets, lots of posters for presentations, but uh you know, we were working with uh Nobel Prize winners and stuff to create craft their presentation to some big thing. So it's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Oh my gosh, why can't I think of his name right now? He has a street name after him.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Mario Capeki.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Yeah, Mario Kapeki. Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine like day one, this old guy kind of comes in your office and you're like, hey, I've got this conference I'm going to. Can you help me with this? And you're like, yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

They're pretty humble. They know that their lane is kind of small and they need a little bit of help to get jazzed up a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 9:07

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

They appreciate that. But yeah, um, I had been working as a route setter for Momentum. Uh, that Sandy gym opened, and that was kind of a revelation. That was a huge step up for the valley in terms of uh quality indoor rock climbing. I'd been driving down to Provo to the quarry, and the quarry is definitely like a climbing gym 1.0 where everybody's just shoulder to shoulder. Every surface is covered in a climbing wall. There's no room to move around or chill out. Yeah. So Sandy was a huge revelation. It had this huge floor-to-ceiling window that was looking out over Lone Peak, and it just looked gorgeous in there. And I immediately became a asked to become a route setter there. That's amazing. So I was working nights and weekends setting routes at Sandy while working up at the university.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

I mean, even if it was like because I remember when the momentum in Sandy opened and just being like, oh, like because again, like I was used to these raw creations, kind of like, oh, you come rock client. Like it's it wasn't as much of like I mean, the the way my brain wants to go was like a diehard place where people get to like go regularly, but more of like a hey, let's go have fun with the kids. Yeah, let's go to the city.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Entertainment zone, birthday parties, that sort of thing, like a one and done sort of uh and then I remember driving past the momentum.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

I was like, like I had to do like a cartoon double take because I was like, that thing's huge. Yeah. And just like so different than anything we had seen. And like with the valley now, because I don't, yeah, Rock Creation's not there anymore because Black Diamond took that over. I don't really care about what's in Provo because who wants to go to Provo anyway? But like, I mean, it's essentially like the front or momentum, but it's been fun to see how much momentum has grown. Um, especially like the new location that I'm sure you have been working on night and day in trolley square. Yeah. I'm excited to talk about that eventually. But like, I mean, what like how did you even how does someone get started like being a route placer? That seems like such like a niche thing to like just be like, hey, can I try this? But don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, the same desires that got me into graphic design and art, and I've just been a lifelong artist, are the same things that drive me as a route setter. It's a really cool meld of uh construction and art because you're essentially creating a dance for somebody to do at a later date, but you also need to know all of your rope systems, or if you're working on a lift, you have to work the lift and stuff, and you have to know how to how to put things on the wall, put holds on the wall. Makes sense. But it's a really artistic, artistic endeavor.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

So, as someone who I would call myself creative, like talking through this process, is it like let's say they order an assortment of um grips and footholds and like whatever, and it's like, hey, Brendan, like go put them up, or is it mostly like you look at the wall, be like, well, it'd be nice to do this or this, or this would be more difficult, so we have to do that. Like, how do you think like approach that?

How Route Setting Actually Works

SPEAKER_00 11:46

Yeah, from the business perspective, you need a really solid head route setter who can work with the customer, really understand the customer base because you have these huge range of difficulties from 5.5 to 514. And if you don't hit the right customer, you're just gonna be alienating a lot of people because they'll be trying too hard or too easy for what they're really interested in. So a great, great head route setter is gonna find the bell curve as to where your customers are at, and then they're gonna assign each individual route to a really good route setter. And then they'll you'll take the grade and you'll uh work really hard to make the right grade to fit where the bell where it needs to be on the bell curve.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

And like, because like if I go to a gym and I start climbing, like I kind of know, like can look at something like that's not for me. Like I guess I like rock climbing, but I don't love rock climbing. If someone invites me, I'll go, but I'm not like, all right, it's time. We're gonna get better at this. But like, I mean, what other kind of considerations do you have to have versus that you think about when you're like, oh, this is gonna be a harder route versus like an easier route? Is it depending on like what you're actually using to create it, or is it like space between? I mean, walking through that.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah, the the big things, the big dials that you have to turn are the the wall steepness, the hold size, and the distance between the holds. Those are the big three. Um, but you're looking at those nuances of how the body moves through space, ergonomics. You don't want to make a situation where somebody could easily injure themselves, where they're uh putting their shoulder in a compromising position. And then you're also just looking for that that right feeling of flow state, you know. Cool. And then you'll forerun the route. You'll probably have another route setter forerun the route, and that'll help you know that you're ballparking the right grade and that you're doing the the movements that really feel good. You know, it's a it's a dance and you really want these dances to feel elegant and fun, uh thoughtful.

SPEAKER_03 13:33

And so do you so if you have a wall in front of you, are you sketching it out on paper of being like, oh, let's do this to this or this, or is it like place kind of like do it yourself and be like, okay, I think that works, or like we need to take this out and put that back there.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Yeah, uh, you definitely daydream a lot when you're away from the wall about new movements, new interesting things that you want to try out. And sometimes you'll bring that idea in and you'll try it and it won't work. Uh taking the holds off is just as important as putting them on, you know, reversing your mistake, using the eraser to reverse and figure it out. And then yeah, you kind of mime it out while you're working up and see if your foot's in the right spot, how it feels.

SPEAKER_03 14:10

It's gotta be some interesting dreams and like where your brain goes when it's at rest of like just thinking through footholds and hand holds and walls and everything in between.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah, you have this great catalog of people who have route set before you or the things that you've done outside that really interested you, you know, the things that really you just have these light bulb moments when you're outside, you're like, that was just a brilliant cross-through to that pocket, and that felt really cool. And I felt like a rock star when I was up on that wall. And then you want to bring that feeling back and you can give that feeling to 500, a thousand people because they get to do that same move that you thought was so cool.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Yeah. And do you ever just like sit there and just watch people like because I assume when you make a route, you're like, this is how I meant it to be done.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

And I'm and I'm sure with harder routes, like there's only really one way for it to be done. But do you ever just like sit there and watch people try to figure it out? And you're like, ah, close, close, or like, oh, they got it. There it is. And you see like that smile.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

All the time, yeah. That's so cool. Observation is the majority of what you're doing, is just watching how people move.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

Or other times you look at it too and you're like, oh, we need to update that one. People aren't quite making it clear.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Yeah, yeah. Making the revision is really important. You'd want to you want to challenge people, you don't want to make it a ladder because you totally could just make it a left hand, right hand ladder straight up the wall. And you want to challenge them mentally and physically. And you want to get them just to that point where they think that they're gonna fail, or maybe they fail one or two times. But if they're failing five, six, seven times, then you know that you maybe overcooked it a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

And if you see people, you know, shaking their head and lowering, then you really need to go back to the drawing board.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Like, sorry. Like, who who did that one? Don't don't don't look at me.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

And a good, you know, a good customer interaction is just being able to have that dialogue with them. Totally. You know, our long-term members have no problem telling you whether or not you've done it right or wrong. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

And okay, so let's go back to the story. So you're being a medical illustrator, which doesn't sound nearly as fun as putting up routes and and working at it for a climbing gym. You get this opportunity to go, I mean, work kind of like nights and weekends to go put routes in, but at what point did it become Sayanara, University of Utah? I'm gonna go join Momento.

Grading, Flow, And Safety

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Yeah, Jeff was the CEO, Jeff Peterson was the CEO of the Sandy location, and he had been kind of fermenting this idea in the back of his head about expanding momentum. So he had found a really great location up on 33rd that would become Mill Creek. And he was working with the wall construction company Walltopia out of Bulgaria. And he had this model, he had brought in a professional climber to design this model, this 3D model. And he asked me to review it because he really respected the route setting that I was doing. And he had no idea what my day job was. Um and he didn't know that I knew 3D or anything. So I took the model on Friday and I spent 48 hours straight just revising the model and delivered the model back to him on Monday after just straight working through it. And he I mean, I guess he liked it because that's what's in Mil Creek now. That's amazing. Uh SketchUp. Okay. Yeah. So kind of like a CAD light where you're just working with the planes and stuff, you're not working with the engineering load or anything.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Got it.

unknown 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Well, that's gonna be like that's gotta be such like a nice validation because it's one thing to be like, all right, I'll come do this in spare time, or like I'm sure especially getting started, it was more taking directions than it was like, here's a wall, let me know when you're done.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

But then to be like, hey, we got this from this Bulgarian wall company, which it sounds so funny to say out loud. It's never a combination of words that I ever thought I'd say. But then it's like, we want you to like make sure this makes sense. And then you're like, eh, this is kind of what I would come back with. Here's what I think, yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah, he was expecting like, you know, like uh maybe at most a five sentence email, and then I came back with a completely revised, you know, 3D file. That's a hand review.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Which Yeah, and so then you leave medical uh illustrating.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah, he said, yeah, he said it's bigger than this, or my plans are bigger than this. So it was kind of a courting process to get me away from a good 401k to do this sort of startup idea that he had. And you know, Mill Creek was a smashing success. So it was a really nice validation to see that just take off.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

Yeah, it's like leave one of the largest employers in Utah, a lot of stability to rock climbing rock wall empire.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

And so you so you join full-time. I mean, uh was it mostly wall setting at that point, or did were they like, oh, we didn't know that you had this graphic design. Let's have you go and do that too. I mean, how did this like the amount of things in your purview grow from this, I mean, part-time route setter to now the director of art that you are now?

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Yeah, he didn't have a a position set up for me. He, you know, he just saw that opportunity when I presented him with that. And then he already had investors and money queued up for another location, Lehigh. So he just said, you know, he did a great job with Mill Creek. And it the design of Mill Creek still needed to be refined a lot. And he said, you know, what do you want to take Mill Creek on and take Lehigh on and you know keeping it? Yes, yes, I do. Please.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

So yeah, uh that's I'm sure everything needs to get adjusted over because like you can't have the same routes forever, or else people are like, oh, why would I go back to the same routes I know over and over again?

Iteration, Observation, And Feedback

SPEAKER_00 19:27

So doing the wall design, Mill Creek, um, staying on part-time design, part-time uh route setting, and then um it sort of uh filling the time with graphic design.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

And did like I guess one question I have in that is like a lot of times, like one of my ethos I live by is like my work, like especially if I'm getting paid to do a job, I don't own something, it's like something I do for someone else, should never be something I love. Because once you're forced to do something you love, you'll slowly resent it and not love it the same way you did. Did you ever have that relationship with rock climbing, or do you feel like it was always just like kind of fueled that passion?

SPEAKER_00 20:02

I've certainly had that relationship with route setting, um, because route setting is so physically demanding. Um you can definitely spend so much time setting routes that you don't actually get to climb them. It's a very uh physically demanding job. Uh and then I no, the passion for climbing has never dwindled at all. But um yeah, the the I still dream of you know gyms that I haven't made yet.

SPEAKER_03 20:32

They're all stored up there, not quite in a in a uh sketch file, but soon.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

Yeah, and every every line of climbing in the gym I've climbed in my head well before it's built, you know, months before it's built. I've just been dreaming of like what it climbs like in the SketchUp file. Cool.

SPEAKER_03 20:50

And then I love that so there was the the Sandy location, which was like the hypothesis, and then there was an expansion into Mill Creek. Yeah. And then there was Lehigh.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

I mean, and I assume, I mean, same sort of thing. I mean, Jeff comes to you as like, hey, listen, here's a new wall, what do you think? You're like, here's what I think. Um what was next after Lehigh, or was it mostly just kind of maintaining until the now Charlie Square?

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Aaron Powell Yeah, Lehigh was you know, um just starting from the ground up. Uh there was no sort of input from anybody else. It was just me working with Jeff and uh the construction manager Noah.

SPEAKER_03 21:23

Because that one came from like scratch. It wasn't going over taking over whatever it was in Mill Creek. I can't remember what it was, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

And just the design in general. Uh we just started from ground zero. We didn't uh ask for any input from Walltopia or anything. We just designed the walls uh right from because he had the tool now in me. Yeah. He had the tool to visualize what he wanted and what we wanted as a as a team.

SPEAKER_03 21:46

No more Bulgarian wall companies. Yeah, you've got Brendan.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Uh and then yeah, from Lehigh, we expanded to uh Katie, Katie, Texas, and uh Silver Street, Texas, which is downtown Houston.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

How was that going from I mean hometown Salt Lake City to going and building other places? Does that change the way you approached it at all? Because like when I think about Texas, like I'm always curious about places where it's like, oh, you're gonna go put a rock climbing wall on a place that doesn't have any mountains? Like that's a whole new introduction to people. But like d did you approach that in any different way, or is it the same old like I have this wall in my head, I'm gonna go put it on this wall?

Designing Millcreek In 48 Hours

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah, that's a great question. It's we in the same way that you start route setting from the customer standpoint, you want to start the gym design from the customer standpoint. So you're looking at who the people around you are. And in Salt Lake, I knew all the climbers around me because I had been climbing with them for decades. So I knew exactly what they wanted in a gym, and that's what Mill Creek is and Lehigh is. But in Texas, you don't know the customer. So you have to take a risk. But I think the I think uh having uh ample outdoor climbing is probably a detriment to being a great indoor climber. I think the next world champion is gonna come out of one of these places like Houston. Uh because you because you dedicate so much effort to indoor climbing when you don't have the option to go outside.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Right now you're in the gym all the time 'cause there's nothing else to do. Yeah. But as soon as I mean I was gonna say as soon as the snow melts, but We can't do that right now. Um, then you're you want to go outside as soon as possible. Like the same thing with me in golf. Like I could go to a simulator all day, that's fine. But then as soon as I could actually go out on a course, like that's where I'd always rather be.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah. I have that opportunity for sure, and that's great. But uh outdoor climbing, you know, it takes skin. You get skin splits and tear up your hands, and it takes way more time than going to the gym. Yeah. So it can be kind of a detriment to uh your your excellence as an indoor climber.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

What are some of your favorite places to climb around here? And you don't have to give up any secret spots.

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Well you know, the Jeff Patterson developed um American fork climbing. And uh that was uh just a huge sea change in American climbing. It was the first climbing that was overhanging 45 degrees, and the first climbing with bolts, and the first climbing that was purely dedicated just towards difficulty. And it it just kind of turned the whole sport on its head where these lycra clad uh muscled, muscled up guys without shirts were hanging upside down in caves. And it just uh from the old Yosemite days, it just looked so bizarre. Yeah. But he he really was instrumental in ushering in uh the sport climbing that we all do today.

SPEAKER_03 25:06

What's the summary of Jeff's like impetus for getting this all started? Because if I'm again like a someone who won't like an entrepreneur that wants to start a business, my brain, the first place my brain goes isn't like rock climbing gyms in Utah. I think that's what we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

He started out, uh he has a had a retail shop down in Provo. And then he was instrumental in getting the quarry started and then uh yeah, expanding it to Sandy. But really, as you said, like we're not climbing right now because it's snowing outside, and he was just looking for a place to train. And he had been, you know, building the home walls and their garages, and he just thought that there was an idea that could be expanded upon.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

I love rich people that have the same hobbies as me. Like one of my friends named Scott Haslum, he started a pretty successful like truck outfitting and truck rental business, but he loves like house music and going to shows. And he's like, well, essentially he got this idea to buy like a military tank/slash uh like uh vehicle, putting like a um DJ set on it and sound system, and then throws shows in his uh junkyard, but then can drive it anywhere. And I was like, Thank you for again being rich and having similar hobbies as me. So thank you, Jeff, for being rich and having similar hobbies as us.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Um Yeah. He would probably shudder at being rich, but uh he's he's a he's a great salesman and he has I'm glad people who want to spend money on hobbies that I enjoy.

SPEAKER_03 26:32

That's probably the better thing to say.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

He's uh great at pitching his ideas for building new things.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

I mean, that's what it really comes down to is like because I mean you don't have to you don't have to spend only your money. You can always spend other people's money. And you have to give people's money, you have to have great communication skills, television, and be convicted.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Exactly. Yeah.

Building Lehi And Owning The Design

SPEAKER_03 26:49

And so if you can do that, I mean, it also can be work on the other side of things of like people raising money and doing terrible things, but that's a whole nother topic. Um but I'm really curious about this new location, the trolley square one. Yeah, because it's so unique compared to the other designs. And I don't want to give too much of the steal the thunder from you, but walk me through kind of this trolley square location, what's unique about it, and what I mean would make people want a gap.

SPEAKER_00 27:13

Yeah, it's a new idea called the micro gym. And it's for these uh smaller footprint areas. So it's essentially we're trying to distill the larger gym into what makes the larger gym so enticing. And that is great route setting, uh, ample workout area to be able to cross-train, and then all of the recovery options that we have down there with the sauna and cold plunge. And uh it's uh it's essentially it's a way of inserting a really nice fitness space into a smaller footprint like a mall. Yeah. Uh your typical space that you would have for like a 24-hour fitness and the ability to put more small gyms around in a larger city rather than these huge flagship locations that require so much of a footprint.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

Yeah. And I know the like because the wall there is like a smart wall now, and it's different than the other ones, right? Like tell me how that works. I haven't experienced it yet, but I've been excited to.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah, the the light up boards um have been in the training space for a long time, and it just allows you to control what the route is using your uh iPhone or uh one of the app controllers. And it's an LED light behind the hold that lights up holds on a different route. So you can layer more routes on top of each other, and that allows for more climbing in the same space, essentially.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

More routes, smaller space, because it can condense into that.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

So it's been developed in the training space for a long time with the adjustable boards that go up and down, and those are small home walls for people who don't have a big gym, and now we're just uh working that idea into a larger gym space.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

No, that's cool. Because I've loved to see how like Charlie Square, it's been fun to see, like, because in my lifetime it's been like this roller coaster of experiences. And if you're not from here, buckle up. Because like because I remember going there when I was a kid for uh Charlie Chow's Chinese food and spaghetti factory.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

And the arcade. And the arcade, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

I still remember the skee ball and the anyway, yes, those very well. And then it kind of like had this hiatus, and there's like, I mean, the shooting, yep, and then everything kind of left except for like spaghetti factory, I ironically, but that just stood there. Then there's sharper image and brookstone and kind of these things, American apparel, but then kind of went on this hiatus. But I kind of love where it's coming to now, where we have like an orange theory, there's a core power, there's now a momentum, there's a pottery barn, and it's so it's been also uh Rhodesio has somehow always been there the entire time. Interesting. Um, but I love that there's kind of like this new kind of phase of it of like being like, okay, like here's this great space, it's close to downtown. I mean, uh, Whole Foods has come in, Lululemon used to be there. And so I think it's I mean, momentum being there is like the perfect fit.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, it's a great fit. I think uh the majority of our customers shop at Whole Foods. So having them in the same spot.

SPEAKER_03 30:03

And there's a wait, the black diamond store is there too, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:05

Yeah, there's a black diamond store.

SPEAKER_03 30:07

It's all coming together.

Taking Momentum To Texas

SPEAKER_00 30:09

It's a great space. Uh it's really cool to see it getting revitalized. And it's kind of meeting that shift in the consumer marketplace from the big box store towards the more niche stores where you get the one-on-one, you know, shopping experience where you really get the expertise in the smaller places like Tabula Rassa and uh some of those smaller shops.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

Totally. Um and it's open now.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yes. Uh we opened on the 20th of December, like right before the Christmas break. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:39

Where in theory, if it was a full winter, it'd be a great. I mean, it still is. I'm not going outside to climb in this weather still, especially when there's something new and fancy. And I love that it's like, I mean, cold plunge in and sauna, because I mean there's a billion cold plunge and sauna places opening, but like my question that every time someone wants me to go to one or invites me to go to one, I'm like, well, what's what's different? You know, like in like so there's one um down in American Fork called Flowhouse that one of my friends started, and I like it because it's actually like a huge sauna and a huge cold plunge. So it's like more social. But then I love it, it's like, oh, like I won't go specifically for cold plunge and sauna, but I will go to the gym and or rock climbing, and I definitely will take advantage of that while I'm there.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah, it's our philosophy on that whole holistic approach to you know keeping healthy and climbing, and uh, you know, the the healthier you are, the more you can climb. So we have a lot of free yoga classes. We've had yoga studios since day one in all of our locations. Um, and we're, you know, really focusing on the recovery aspect of it. But having the, you know, weightlifting, cardio, treadmills all in the same spot where you're also doing the recovery work is really cool.

SPEAKER_03 31:49

Yeah, and like the more things that bring people to a place just makes it m so much more community focused.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Yeah, community is a huge aspect of the indoor climbing space. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 31:57

And climbing in general. Like that's one thing I love about because like going back to our conversation about like introverts and extroverts, like the thing I love about a lot of Utah hobbies, I mean, across, I mean, running, skiing, biking, um, et cetera, is like you they can always be very social, or it's like, actually, I'm gonna go do this on my own. Absolutely. And like with climbing, I feel like all my climbing friends are some of like the most social of them all, because it's like, oh, like during the good weather, it's like, oh, we're going outside, we're gonna have a speaker, we're gonna hang out. Like, it's so much more of like a hang than it is like like a workout, so to speak. But then at the same way, like you go to the gym and it's very few people alone, but there are still people that can be there alone, headphones in and just kind of grinding doing their thing.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

For sure. There's um there's a great problem solving aspect to climbing. And the more, the more brains you can put towards solving the problems in a boulder problem, the faster it goes. It's a really fun aspect to have one person figure out one part of the problem and then have another person figure out the other part of the problem, and then both of you can uh send the problem.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Yeah. You know? Because that's one thing, because like last time I went climbing, I went with two friends and I was kind of like sitting back and just kind of like observing everybody else around me. And there was these three people together, and they were just staring at this wall, and I could tell like they were trying to work together to figure this out, and nobody really could. That's probably there for like an hour, hour and a half, and by the end of it, they they figured it out and they're like so excited. And it was it's fun because again, it's like this problem solving. And if you can't figure it out, if you're banging your head against the proverbial wall, or maybe sometimes a literal wall with this one, it's you need another point of view, another brain to think about in a different way. Exactly. And so bring people together, even sometimes if it's like I've also seen it where there's a stranger on one side of the gym, and then they'll kind of see someone else be like, hey, like have you ever thought about this? And they're like, Oh my god, no, like of course. So it's it's fun to see that community aspect come together, especially when it's not just rock climbing at that point, but then I mean cross-training and just holistic health in general.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah. And you definitely want to be conscientious of not giving unsolicited advice to people across the gym. Because that's kind of like the spoiler. You know, there's always a universal thing.

AF Canyon And Sport Climbing History

SPEAKER_03 33:59

Like no one wants unsolicited advice. I've never once been like, well, thank you for injecting yourself into my life and telling me that you know better.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

But you know, it's a it's a real treat to figure out a problem that our outsetter has spent a lot of time trying to trying to get you to solve. So you never want the spoilers to the movie.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Totally. So I mean, what's the next step for for you for momentum? Um, is it mostly just kind of thinking where else we can put these little kind of like micro gyms that fit in places or more big projects, a little bit of both?

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Yeah, I think the the the micro gym is proving to be a really popular concept. And if you could put you know, six gyms across a city rather than one big flagship, uh um, I think you really serve the serve the group better. Um but we're also exploring big flagship gyms. We're gonna open up two in Houston in the upcoming year. Um our biggest gym yet, so bigger than Fort Union. Wow. Um, in terms of footprint. And uh Houston really is uh is a great spot for that.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

I'm sure there's a lot of files stored away in your head of routes that are gonna go all over the biggest one of them all.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Yeah, for sure. And uh, you know, I think Houston sits at maybe the fourth uh biggest city in the United States, and it still has essentially climbing gym 1.0 down there. So I think we can really open their eyes to something that bring our bring our expertise down there.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

And the the uh central gym at Silver Street in Houston has been a huge success. It's a bouldering only gym, so they're they're waiting for the ropes to come.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

If you build it, they will come.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

I think so.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Um just you know, a shout out to the the huge team that goes into building these gyms. You know, we have construction managers and designers and all the all the desk staff, and we have these, you know, huge youth programs that are staffed by these uh incredible youth coaches that are really getting the next generation of climbers really excited about climbing. Huge appreciation to them. Uh, you know, my daughter's in a climbing class right now.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

That's awesome. Yeah, it's been fun to see how much I mean it I'm I can only say to the Utah crowd, like because like I don't have kids, but I have way too many nieces and nephews, like between my fans' siblings and step siblings are just 21. Yeah. And like the oldest 17, youngest is like six months. But it's been fun to see, like, oh, like you guys aren't playing like football and basketball, you're like like mountain biking now. Like it's like such a different take on things. And so it's fun to see how that comes through and like this competitive element and like school element like be a part of it, and just like people lean into that so much more and what went from being a hobby to being like something that can actually be something you do, similar to like how team sports were when we grew up.

unknown 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

So it's fun to see how much that is. And I'm sure, while I again like Salt Lake is the place I can speak to the most, there's gotta be happening things similarly in places like Texas.

Why Micro Gyms Work At Trolley Square

SPEAKER_00 36:53

For sure. Um, we have a huge youth program in Texas, and it's just it's been incredible to see Salt Lake become the hub of climbing. Uh it was Boulder, Colorado, but now USAC, the national group for that oversees competitive climbing, has moved to Salt Lake. And we have, you know, one of our team kids got a silver medal in the Olympics. No way. Yeah. Nathaniel Coleman uh podiumed in the Tokyo Olympics. It's crazy. And um uh no, he was no Tokyo. Yeah. Um and just seeing climbing, indoor climbing mature in that way has been incredible to see. You know, going from climbing gym 1.0 with uh pea gravel floors to uh 50,000 square foot, 60 foot tall facility with um, you know, being able to being able to employ route setters. I did it as a volunteer for a long time. So just the ability to to make those dreams happen for people like me is uh such a gift.

SPEAKER_03 38:02

But like also part of me is so jealous of like the kids that are growing up now. Because like like I remember when I like when Woodward opened up in Park City, I was like, are you kidding? If I was 14 to 18 and this happened, I would live here. Like this is all I would ever do in the same way. Like view growing up and being like, oh, I guess I'll go to rock creation or go to the quarry, and like it's it's fine for the winter. And as soon as the weather's good enough, I'll go outside. And like if we could have had these things, it would have been great. But then it's also fun to be the one to like instill that onto the next generation, teach them and start this whole process of at some point they'll be the next people teaching the next people and and having a hand in that, especially seeing how much it's grown from I mean, you growing up doing it to now being able to see, like see it hands-on grow and like see all the numbers and everything and see all the faces of the people continually come in.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Yeah, it's uh very humbling. It keeps you humble when a 12-year-old climbs your project that you've been working on for three months. But it's also it's it's it's it's such a great gift because I they're climbing on a wall that I made, you know. It's a really cool, cool thing to see.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

It's fun, like because I always am envious of people that get these really short um like feedback loops where like, I mean, most people, I mean, especially like when I was like a consultant, like it's not like I would give my work to some like marketing team to be like, oh my gosh, this is so great. We appreciate you so much. Like, you know, but instead it's like, oh, cool. Like I built this wall, see this kid beaming ear to ear because he was able to do it and had so much fun doing it. Like that's so much more rewarding. So I'm I'm envious that you get to have that experience on top of it all.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah, I I'm just so grateful to have the opportunity Jeff gave me. Cool.

unknown 39:35

You know.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

Well, Brandon, before we wrap up, want to end with the two questions I always ask everybody at the end of each episode. Uh, number one, if you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear more about what they're up to in their story, who would you want to hear from?

SPEAKER_00 39:48

Hmm. That's a good one. Uh I want to hear from the designer and the person who implemented the whale at ninth and ninth. Um, it's such a such a cultural sort of lightning rod. It kind of it divides the area so evenly. Yeah. And uh I want to hear um, you know, how that came to fruition.

SPEAKER_03 40:11

Yeah. And I'm also curious because like it's due to change, I think like next year or the end of this year.

SPEAKER_00 40:16

I think hearing the vision on that would be super cool because I didn't I had no idea that it was going to get repainted and uh hearing kind of the long-term thought on that. Yeah. I I'm a huge fan of it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 40:26

Oh, I love like so as I have a lot of family that lives in like the Portland area, and Portland has a ton of like wacky art installations.

SPEAKER_00 40:32

Keeping it weird.

Smart Walls, LEDs, And Training

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Exactly. Like, why would we want something that like don't get me wrong? There's like things where I want it to fit cohesively and like blend in, kind of like um oh, I can't think of the neighborhood in St. George where it's like everything has to be built a certain way, certain height, because it has to blend in. Someone's gonna anyway, comment if you think of what it is, because I can't think of it right now. Um, but then there's the things I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I want strong juxtaposition. I want to feel like something doesn't belong here. Because like if you were to hand like here's this roundabout in ninth and ninth, what do you think? It'd be like uh tree, uh like something. But he's like, nope, whale tail.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Yeah, huge whale.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

And like the people that fought it at the beginning, and then now every like I don't think I've ever talked to someone in recent memory that's like, that's dumb. I hate this. It's always like that's our whale.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Well, I got those people talking to me here. There is still there are still whale haters out there, but it's here to stay. So I'm excited about it.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

Um and then lastly, if people want to find more information about momentum or um follow you, and then what's the best place to find information?

SPEAKER_00 41:32

I would certainly point them towards uh momentumclimbing.com. We have uh big uh uh social presence on Instagram learning about the newest offers and the newest classes. We got uh great classes for beginner climbers, first timers, kids. Uh we have winter camps and uh, you know, all the great, all the great stuff to keep you active in the winter months of Salt Lake.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

I was gonna say keep people grounded, but it's the opposite of that, really. Um no, cool. Yeah, come check out the new gym in Trolley Square, or if you haven't checked out any of them, then go check out one of them. Yeah. Especially in this weird winter we find ourselves in where it's like too cold to do like outdoor things and it's there's not enough snow and it's not cold enough to ski. Go do something else.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yeah, you'll have a blast.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

No, I love it. Thanks, Brendan. Keep creating cool walls. I'm excited for Houston. I'm excited for here. And I hate using climbing puns, but it's only up from here. Thanks, ma'am.