Vault Episode 8: John Darley

A basement, a sketchbook, and a stubborn belief that boredom can be a gift—that’s where this story starts. John Darley takes us from Florida swamps and Salt Lake basements to New York studios and back again, unpacking how a youngest child with high risk tolerance became a nationally awarded figurative painter. He talks about the ruthless discipline of apprenticeship under Jeff Hine, eight-hour model days at Grand Central Academy, and why craft has to come before concept if you want your work to speak clearly.

We dig into the real economics of a creative career: private commissions vs gallery splits, irregular income, and the two-year, sleep-starved sprint that ended with a hard-won mortgage and a garage-turned-studio in American Fork. John shares the painting “Bearing,” born from that dark stretch, and explains why patrons aren’t “customers” but partners who fund ambitious, guaranteed outcomes—like the large multifigure narratives he’s building now. Along the way, Utah’s quiet art power is revealed: clusters of award-winning painters and sculptors, international recognition, and a landscape that keeps pulling stories to the surface.

On the craft side, John breaks down egg tempera—egg yolk and pigment—for its muted, dreamlike register and the luminous “glow” that cameras never quite capture. He maps how sculpting sharpens drawing, how shape design drives interest, and how portraits can carry dense narratives in a single frame. It all ladders up to a simple credo: master the vocabulary so the work can say something true, then keep moving forward, embracing the unknown. If you’re an artist, collector, or just curious about the grind behind beautiful work, this one will sit with you.

If you enjoyed this conversation, follow the show, share it with a friend who loves art, and leave a quick review with your favorite insight.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Setup
• 4:30 Childhood Moves And Family Art Roots
• 11:20 Poverty, Boredom, And Finding Drawing
• 18:05 High School Doodling And Early Confidence
• 24:05 Meeting Cassandra And Choosing A Path
• 29:05 Oil Boom Jobs And The Decision To Commit
• 34:35 Apprenticing With Jeff Hine
• 41:05 Craft Over Concept And Figure Discipline
• 48:05 New York Training And Model Marathons
• 55:05 Health Strain, Returning Home, First Breaks
• 1:01:35 Big Commissions And Momentum
• 1:08:05 Pandemic Grind, Sleep Loss, And Bearing
• 1:15:05 Buying A Home And Building A Studio
• 1:21:05 Utah’s Underrated Art Powerhouse
• 1:27:35 Galleries, Commissions, And Economics
• 1:33:35 Large Multifigure Ambitions
• 1:39:35 Egg Tempera, Tone, And Glow
• 1:46:35 Storytelling In Portraiture
• 1:52:35 Style Today And Embracing The Unknown

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 1:35

What is up, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City Podcast. I'm your host, Eric Nielsen, and this week we have another vault episode before we kick off season two of the Small Lake City Podcast. And the guest this week is John Darley. Now, John Darley is an artist, one of the biggest up-and-coming artists and portrait artists coming out of Utah. Now, John Darley is someone who I have known for the better part of 30 years. We grew up together in the avenues, went to middle school and high school, but that's where our paths really went two different ways. I went to college, he went and pursued art in New York and around the country, and really has developed an amazing career for himself and a lot of traction from a lot of renowned groups and a lot of accolades. So a lot to learn from him. It's a great story of hearing what it is from someone to go from struggling artist to really getting all the recognition that he deserves. So let's jump into it. And this is definitely one that you all are going to enjoy. So here's so here's the fun thing about us, and like you is particular, is when I think about my earliest childhood memories, you were the first character to show up as a peer. Yeah. And this might sound a little uh macabre, macabre, is that the word? Anyway, but everybody else who's been, I mean, let's say like a closer friend at that time, have both passed away. Like someone who'd lived two doors down from me, they unfortunately had a boating accident, died. Then I have another friend who was one of my like first like true like best friends, and he unfortunately passed away. And so when I was like preparing for this, I'm like, John is like the person that ha has been there from the beginning, but then it's fun because like you jumped around from time to time. Cause then you moved down to like like around Bonneville, like uh Yellcrest area. I was still in the avenues, and then I could move down there, and you're at you into I'm at Bonneville, we go to Clayton, uh, yeah, Clayton, and then you're there.

SPEAKER_03: 3:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 3:27

And then like it's just kind of like this. Oh, like hey, John's back.

SPEAKER_00: 3:30

Like, what's going on? I popped around, I actually boun bounced around more than that. Um, I went to holiday.

SPEAKER_02: 3:38

So, so here's here's kind of actually I don't want to go over it twice. So let's okay. So, born and raised in Salt Lake City, Utah.

SPEAKER_00: 3:44

No. No, oh so that's that's let's start there. So, yeah, no, I was um born in Boston, Massachusetts. Um and so my and I lived there for only like a year, and then we moved to Florida, which um was great, great try childhood. It was the sticks. I'm the youngest of five, um, and there's about a six-year gap between me and the next youngest. So you're the youngest, right, Eric? Yes, yes, baby. The youngest always kind of is like your parents are kind of tired, you know, and um and especially when there's a six-year gap. Um and uh Florida was a fantastic childhood just because I was in the woods all day, and it was like the woods, woods, right? Like water moccasins and um alligators everywhere. Um and that I was just like a wake up and my goal was to like catch frogs. It was great. Um I even caught a gator when I was five. It was great, it was about three three feet. Mom, look what I got. Yeah, they freaked out. Um, but uh but my my family, what happened was the reason why we popped around Salt Lake a bunch is my my dad, I I don't know exactly what was happening with his job, but um I think maybe his boss was doing something sketchy. I don't know the details. Like now that I'm older, this this doesn't make a ton of sense. Yeah. Um, but he he left that job and um but and he was looking for a new job. Um, and then it was it was really crappy. There was something that happened on our house. We were trying to sell it, but there was a water law that changed, and it caused everyone in the area to try to sell their house all at once. So they had to take a loan out to sell the house.

SPEAKER_03: 5:37

Oof.

SPEAKER_00: 5:37

And so we were broke, like blew through like a couple years of savings, and so um that's when I moved to Utah and saw you. And I was living in my grandpa's basement with my family back then. Okay, and so um, and my grandpa, you know my grandpa, kind of. I well, maybe you don't, but he was playing the organ.

SPEAKER_02: 6:00

Okay, if I saw his face, I because I'm a face person. Yes, if I see a face, I will always recognize it. So if I saw him, I totally was.

SPEAKER_00: 6:06

Yeah, so he was a musician, and this is your dad's dad. This is my dad's dad. Okay, yeah, he was a musician, and we moved into his basement in the avenues where he had his organ, and um, he has actually a cool story. He was like a farmer in Wellsville, and then um like just taught himself the piano interesting at the tabernacle there, like made a friend with the janitor, and we just always go in, and he like left the farming gig and became a musician, like he spent his whole living was music, and he taught a lot to keep it going. Um, and I would have loved to see him compose more, but he was a Mormon tabernacle choir organist for a while.

SPEAKER_02: 6:49

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, so so art and creativity stems deep into your family. Oh, yeah, yeah. And on my mom's side, that's your dad too, because your mom is the art, like was like the art, quote unquote.

SPEAKER_00: 7:01

Yes. So so my dad, on my dad's side, there was his name was Roy Darley, my grandfather, and um yeah, he was a musician. Um, and he he would he would play for multiple congregations. Um, have you ever seen Anthony Antiques? Yeah building over there. So that used to be a Baptist. And that's the one on like Third South, kind of by a Crown Burger? Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 7:24

Or second south. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:26

I know by by Crown Burger, yeah. Locked in there. Um, but that used to be a Baptist congregation. Oh, I didn't know that. So he'd play for for them, and then he I think he played for a Jewish congregation, synagogue. Makes sense. Um Everybody needs an organ. I don't know. I yeah, I don't know what what uh songs are like in a synagogue, but I know he did work for them. So he was always popping around, you know, and um and he taught a lot and then he composed when he could. Um and so yeah, my dad had a great respect for the arts, right? And then my mom, her, her, her, her um well, went back like way back, their watch repairers, and then she had uh Frederick Wilcox. Funny enough, you you you rushed Sigma Kai. Fet Frederick Wilcox, my he was like my great-grandfather. Yeah, he was one of the founders of Sigma Kai. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 8:20

Yeah, Wilcox is a a name that you see everywhere when you walk through the house and see the composites.

SPEAKER_00: 8:25

He uh um and then but his uh and but my grandfather, he he has I have all these photographs of him and these sculptures he made when he was young. So this is your mom's dad. Yes, and he wanted to become a sculptor really bad, like really bad. Um his parents weren't down with that, and he didn't. Um, and he probably should have. He went into the jewelry business. There's an old sign that's still up in downtown, it says like Danes Jewelry.

SPEAKER_01: 8:51

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:52

So that's my grand, like my mom's side of the family. Um, that's their sign, the jewelry business. That's right. Heidi Danes is my mom. Got it. Um but that they got robbed and somebody didn't r renew the insurance, and so there it goes. Um bummer. Uh pay for your pay your insurance. Um but so yeah, so I had it from both sides. We came from Florida, popped into my grandfather's house, zero dollars, no money. Like, like Christmas was from the dollar store. It was my Christmas. Um, and that was the situation for a long time. Uh so we would we were just bouncing around from place to place living at a relative's house. Um, and my mom, she really, you know, my dad was just getting back on his feet, and they really worked so hard, like, to to get back to like stability. But um, but you're the youngest, right? And your parents are like super stressed out. There's you have four siblings, right? I mean, you're kind of on your own, right?

SPEAKER_02: 9:59

Yeah, like we know you're probably not gonna die. Just don't do anything too stupid, right? You know where home is, right?

SPEAKER_00: 10:08

Um, and so like a lot of my childhood was just being so bored, like you know, just so, so, so bored. Um, but boredom is really conducive to creativity. Absolutely, right? And and so drawing was a huge outlet for that.

SPEAKER_02: 10:22

Like, do you can you think about like what age that started or kind of what started it? Or you just mostly I'm bored, there's nothing else to do. My mom likes to paint. There's this creativity in my blood. I'm just gonna start doodling on a piece of paper.

SPEAKER_00: 10:33

The first thing I ever remember creating was was like before we left Florida. There's like this, I can't remember what it was. It's like this chalk. It was like the soft white rock that I would find, and I would carve animals out of it. It was a lot of fun. Um but it didn't, it didn't really I didn't really sink my teeth into it till uh you know I got a little bit older, and it was a huge outlet, right? Because you're young and you have zero control, right? Like when when when you're older, you can kind of you you have your fight, flight or fight response, right? You can like fight a crappy situation or you can run away from it, but when you're young, like there's no choice until you just you you just absorb it, right? It's just like stress or whatever's happening, you just kind of like take it in, you're like, I don't know where to go, you know. Um, but I mean that's not to say like I had some bad childhood, it was fantastic. Um, but it was definitely I think the situation was conducive to making art, right?

SPEAKER_02: 11:41

And then my mom-I can't think of a single famous artist off the top of my head that was like, Oh, I was born super wealthy, and my my great-grandpappy decided to give me my paints, and I decided to paint because I had this amazing like no, it's like, yeah, this guy almost froze to death because his family's so poor, and then next thing you know, it's I mean, just like that's like so much like almost like a the part of the story. You're almost like prepared to be a struggling artist before you even knew you wanted to be a struggling artist.

SPEAKER_00: 12:05

Well, yeah, it definitely builds up fortitude, right? Like internal fortitude because um because I mean, if you go into the profession of art making, it's just definitely not for the faint of heart. Not at all. It's not. Um, it's a great profession, it's totally doable, totally doable. But um, you definitely have to have some internal fortitude for sure. Um, so and then so we popped it to my grandfather's, and then my mom got a studio, it was painted over at the Guthrie building, right above Cedars of Lebanon. Yes, remember Alec Dagley. I was gonna say Alec Dagley. Oh yeah, oh my gosh. I remember his mom, Marlene, she was so kind to me. I remember just eating so much of their food. I'd go to their house all the time. Such good swarma and just oh, the tabule salad. Oh, oh my goodness, that was prime. And I would I remember I vacuum, I would rat vacuum Rafi's uh rugs, Dagulin rugs. Of course. He'd pay me like five bucks for like an hour of vacuuming or something like that. Steel. I was like, deal. I'd buy like some cap guns or something stupid. Um uh and so I would go, I would go to that her studio all the time because I got like I went from Florida, like where there's alligators and there's snakes, and like like the culture was just way different to enzyme, yeah, right, where like that's like some of the richest households in the valley, totally, right? But I am not rich, like I'm like my family has zero dollars, you know. Um, and so it's like this is weird, and so I didn't like school going to school much at all, because first of all, it's a new environment, but also it's like like what what's going on? Like it was just weird. So I'd always pretend I was sick or whatever, and go to my mom's studio and just watch her paint and just do my own thing. And then and she was really like um hitting the ground running to try to get back ahead, get get on her feet again.

SPEAKER_02: 14:06

And so um and is when she came to Saul like when she first started like painting as like a profession, or was she already doing that in Florida and other places? She was studying while I was while she was in Florida.

SPEAKER_00: 14:17

So she was going to to uh what university did she go to? I can't remember. It was she got she finished up school in Boston. So when I was young, and then I think she was doing more studying too when I I was in Florida. Um but yeah, so she was just getting plugged in and getting her career really going. And uh it did get going.

SPEAKER_02: 14:40

Um is she like sorry, is she mainly doing like um commission work? Is she working on passion projects, mixture of both? Because I know she does a lot of like portraiture, like for con like so, for example, my mom commissioned her to do a painting of me and my sisters at our old house. Oh, cool. And it's still in my mom's house to this day. I still see your mom's signature, the classic high-D, the treble clef.

SPEAKER_04: 15:00

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02: 15:01

Um, so is that is that mainly what she was doing? Like, or just kind of whatever to be fancy.

SPEAKER_00: 15:05

From from what I remember, it was mostly portrait work, and then it was like murals. Okay. Which her murals and her imaginative work is just unreal. Like, I see my mom's sketchbook and her imagination is by far her greatest strength. Like she's she's in her own world a little bit, you know, to I I admit and she would admit, but man, there is a lot in there. It sounds like a cool world to be in. It's it is a wild, she's she has like she has like five books she's written and never published, and they're like 800 pages. Like nuts. And uh the I'm trying to get her to publish them. That's the hard part for her, is like just like finishing, like getting it out there. Um, she has lots of ideas. I really, I really need to help help her get those those done. But her mural work is just like she's just playing. Her portrait work is great, you know, and she did a lot of official portraits for like judges in the state. Um, if you go to Eccles Theater, um, there's a bunch of her paintings there of some some of the Eccles family. I didn't know that. Um, she did some judges here, and um, but it's how she got a lot of things for me. Like she got, I think I got she got me braces by doing some work for the orthodontist. She's always always haggling, right? Um and so, and then so then we we moved we moved from the from the avenues, and I was bop just bumping from school to school, and then we went to uh holiday, and my aunt and uncle um went out to do some missionary work, and we got to live there for a while. And then by then we my my family my parents got on their feet enough to like put a down payment on a home. Huge, right? And so then we ended up landing um by east high.

SPEAKER_02: 16:59

Yeah, that house on it's not on guardsman, not guardsman, but like I know I I can see it in my house as you come up nine south, and then there's that little quick little like turn off to the left, but doesn't connect to sunny side in that house on the right.

SPEAKER_00: 17:10

Yeah, it's like right across the street from pretty close to sunny side. As I tell your parents, everyone exactly where you're cut off. Um, but yeah, so and that was it made a difference. Like um, I liked holiday a lot, but you know, people people talk about um like having having a a home and stability really makes a difference. I could feel a difference, a huge difference. Um and uh and and and also too, I think when you're young, like and you you know, uh kids can can smell it a little bit, you know what I'm saying? Um so yeah, so popping around, um, landed in there and eventually went to you went to elementary school. This was my fifth elementary school um that I went to. Yeah, it was a lot. Yeah. Um, but then yeah, and then stability happened and uh it got a lot better. And then I got I locked into art through that process and I just kept going with it. It was just something I just loved doing.

SPEAKER_02: 18:13

Uh is this mostly at like school and being like, well, I'm gonna go hang out in the art room, or like, uh, I kind of like this more, or is it mostly just at home? Like again, boredom is the perfect place for a creative mind. And you're just like, well, there's nothing to really do, so let's try doodling this or sketching that, or let's grab my mom's paints and mess around for a minute. Definitely both.

SPEAKER_00: 18:32

Okay. Like I was drawing at home, I was drawing at school. You know, the cool thing about being creative, um, especially when you're young, is it's like your own world. Yes, right. And especially if you don't have control over situations like I was talking about, like there's no none of the fight flight or fight kind of you know mechanisms that you can rely on when you're young, but um, you do have control over that, right? And so it becomes very exciting and very stimulating.

SPEAKER_02: 19:00

Um escape from whatever life is happening and whatever hardship is like, yeah, let's go to my world again, really quick.

SPEAKER_00: 19:07

Yes, right, right. And um, and uh all my siblings did it as well.

SPEAKER_02: 19:12

And it was just it's just so I know Shari Shari duh did did and does. Are there any other other siblings there?

SPEAKER_00: 19:20

They're all they all have the capacity for sure. I wouldn't I uh Shari and myself leaned into it the most. That makes sense. Um, but they definitely have the capacity.

SPEAKER_02: 19:31

So like if you had a let's call it a family home evening, yeah, and let's say your mom's like, hey, here's here's all my oil paints, everybody grab a canvas, here's a theme, let's just sit here and listen to music talk. I'm sure there'd be some pretty amazing things that came out of that session. Oh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:49

We I mean we would we would mess around, like we'd make comic books and um and we are very critical on one another. Well, we just my my whole family's very just open, like says things exactly as they think them without probably thinking about them too much, unfortunately, or more fortunately. Um, but and there's some downsides to that, um, especially when I get around people who are not like that. But what I love about it is that um, you know, uh I know that they're telling me exactly what they think about my work, you know, and they critique me to this day quite often, even if I don't ask it, it's kind of annoying, but it's actually very helpful sometimes.

SPEAKER_02: 20:32

Um and are they still people that you look for that feedback to implement, or is it like thanks, Shari, like love that thought, but thanks, but no thanks. Both.

SPEAKER_00: 20:41

I reach I reach out to them, and then sometimes I'm given unsolicited input. Got it. And I appreciate it all. Cool, it's wonderful. And if there's ever arguments, it's really over fast because they say what they think.

SPEAKER_02: 20:53

Yeah, no grudges, nothing holds on to it. It's like, oh yeah, cool. Yeah, your your uh saturation's too high here, like uh your composition's kind of off. I would change it to like cool, you don't care. Or like you're like, oh actually, you're kind of right, maybe I do need to rethink this.

SPEAKER_00: 21:07

Yeah, yeah, it's helpful. It really is. Overall, I would say it's definitely helpful. Um, so that and so my I had the support of my family, like it was like fuel to the fire, and then um, and then I think I, you know, I think anyone really could can draw and paint. Um, it's definitely a learned skill. Um, but it is like, you know, like a thing of aptitude, right? Like some people just gravitate towards one thing or another, um or or can pick up the principles quickly. Um and so it just was something I enjoyed doing. But I think I could have done other things with my life as well, but it would have had to have been like a high stimulus profession. Like had to be a high stimulus profession. I thought I was flirting. This is I mean it's a huge pivot, but I remember I was like before I met Cassandra, my wife, I was like flirting with like enlisting, right? Because I was I was um I served my mission in Philadelphia, um, but I was also I also went to areas like um Dover, Delaware, which is an Air Force base, and it became very like alluring, right? Um I was actually even in contact with huntsman. Interesting. You know, like uh we were messaging back and forth, and he was at the Naval Academy. Oh, John, yeah, John Huntsman, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so so uh so uh and he was like in care, he's like, you should do it. And I was like thinking about it because I I definitely knew that I wanted to do something that like required some stimulation. Now I'm sure in retrospect, I'm glad I didn't do that, go that route. I actually had a friend who did go that route. He's actually in one of my paintings. Uh interesting. He just got back. He I he ended up um becoming in like a Green Beret who joined the army, he became a green beret. It was like 10 years of training. And uh he called me. It was like what six months ago? He called me. Um you know, he got back from deployment. Um, a rocket like blew out one of his eardrums. And he comes back and his wife was hooking up with you know, like great. And uh, and so now like he's in this horrible situation where it's like um, you know, cust there's some custody issues if if he's in like in that profession, right? Because he can be deployed at any moment, yeah, or at least from what I'm aware of what he told me. Um and so he, you know, he has to he spent 10 years and now he has to retool, like start over. Yeah. And um, like I I mean, but I had a I actually have him on one of my paintings, that that um Bering painting. He's that he's the he's the man. Oh, interesting. That's him. He modeled for me for that painting. Um, and I felt like he was the appropriate uh character for it. Um I felt, you know, it just seemed, you know, he's just back. He he just like had the weight of the world. He said, he said, um, like he went through like torture training, he went through um, I think they had to do like a 30 30 mile ruck with an 80-pound pack, keeping a 15-minute mile, you know, like which he said was like one of the easier, like way easier things. And you're like easier, interesting, yeah. Right. But he told me like the divorce was way harder than anything he did in training, like way harder. And I was and I just felt so bad for him, you know, just so bad for him. And so we we we've been hanging out, and um, yeah, I got him in one of my paintings. Um, so all that to say, like there's lots of hard professions. Um, you know, an artist is a life is very unique, yeah, has its challenges, but like, I mean, there's also that, right?

SPEAKER_02: 24:58

Like becoming a great point, like that's like one thing I've learned in talking to friends, because like I love the point of life I'm at right now being I'm in the last year of my early 30s, I'm 33, and it's fun because all my friends that went to law school, medical school, dental school, like very professionalized degrees, they're finally doing what they wanted to do. And I've done enough growth and introspection to know who I am, what makes me happy, my values, and I like where I'm at, all decisions aside. And that's fine, it's fun because I can look at friends and be like, I'm so glad I didn't go that route. I almost did this. I'm so glad I didn't do that. Because, like, even if you're pointing like highly stimulated things, like a one of my best friends, uh Brandon Bowen, is a dentist. And I'll be like, So what'd you do today? He's like, Well, I had three feelings, I did a cleaning, I had this, I did blah, blah, blah. I'm like, that's so great for him. Obviously, he's doing well, but like for me and how I have to get through a day and be stimulated and how my brain like attaches to something with curiosity, that would never do it for me.

SPEAKER_03: 25:55

Sure.

SPEAKER_02: 25:56

And so I do have like, I mean, a corporate job where there's like structure, but at the same time, like, and I think it's interesting because like artistry in itself, I think doesn't get enough credit because you can find art in anything. Like, I was talking to an engineer I work with, and he was and I was telling him about I think it was like about the podcast, and I like painting, he's like, Oh, I wish I was creative or artistic. I'm like, we understand, like when you write a certain like code, let's say, there's a point where you understand and appreciate it enough that you can understand the artistry in that. So there's so many people that say, I'm not artistic, I could never pick up a pencil or a paintbrush and do this. And it's like, yeah, that's one way, but in like the overarching theory of art, it's so much bigger than that. And we can all appreciate it in our own respective way that gives us value and appreciation and being present in life. And like also, you're talking, I like what you're saying, where you're like, everybody has some sort of like artist within them creative, even like in I mean, traditionally thinking about like painting, drawing, whatever. Because like growing up, I was always like, oh, stick figure, here we go, not trying more. And it wasn't until recently that I started painting this year.

SPEAKER_03: 26:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:57

And like, and like once you actually like sit down, okay, I'm actually gonna try, I'm gonna listen to this person telling me and I can actually do this. And I was always so pessimistic with myself. I remember like one of the first things I ever painted was this, I mean, still life apple. And I'm doing it, I'm like sitting there just staring at painting, like, this is so bad, I hate this, whatever. And I go and I I kind of finish it, take a picture of it, go home, and then that next day at work, I pulled up my picture and I was like, hey, that's actually not really bad. Like, like this is good. Like, I if you can try and be like patient and grow with it, like you can do it. And unfortunately, like today's world, like you want results now. Yeah, I don't want to wait. I don't want to be patient, I don't have to be taught. I just want to be innately good at this thing.

SPEAKER_03: 27:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 27:38

And so I think it's such a good exercise in patience and learning and development in a way that I don't know, just people aren't native and like inherently as creative as they used to be at one point. And so it's so fun that you got to have this life where you're exposed to it in an early age, you have this history of family in there, and it's set up this stage to be like, okay, like I can almost see like as bad as it can get. And that motivates me to even still take these steps forward. Because like, so I guess so you're you're you're back at UNTEG, Clayton. And I what at what point do you would you say you kind of leaned in more to, I mean, let's call it like the educational side of things? Are you taking art classes at Clayton, East, or are you just kind of more like, I don't really need this, I have my form of learning as I know it?

SPEAKER_00: 28:19

Yeah, you know, that's that's an interesting uh that's interesting because um for uh when I was young, it was just I was just playing, just totally playing. And I've had people sense say, like, what can I do to help my kid get ready, you know, get better at painting and drawing. And there definitely are some technical things that you can do, but I think uh when they're really, really young, just like something they're interested in, right? Like looking at artwork they're interested in and doing artwork that they're interested in. Um, but I I thought, I mean, I I started taking like some classes at the Peterson Art Center, which is a lot of fun. Um, but mostly it was just me doing it myself. Like I I remember I would even go out and like I like I would even I would spray paint, you know, I did some, you know, some graffiti, I guess you could say, but I remember just like being bummed out by like having to be sneaky. So I would get, you know, I got like like pastels and chocks and just like hit up places. Just it was just fun, man. It was like fun to be outside. You had the sun, you could like communicate whatever you wanted, you know, and and and be done with it. Um, but the education didn't really get serious until I got serious, where I was like, I want to make money doing this.

SPEAKER_02: 29:43

Okay, so I want to get there, but I want to get there first. So, okay, so let's say so high school, you're doodling like crazy. If you if anybody ever sat in a classroom with John Darley and they didn't see him doodling, you are a liar, or you weren't actually looking over his shoulder. Because every single notebook you had had a doodle. It was always these like very wild, very wild. Yeah. Uh and it was it was fun because like I would just sit there and kind of, I mean, I couldn't care less about English, but I'd be like, what's in John's head right now? Let's just sit here and stare off. And like next thing I know, you're starting with like a line, and then it's like this thing that melts into this thing. And I'm like, Yeah, I wish I could be in your head and do this. And it was so much fun place.

SPEAKER_00: 30:22

Yeah, it was so much fun. And I remember like I remember like somebody like sneaking one of my drawings in like a trophy case that the janitor like could I get could have got you know some keys to. Um, yeah, it was it was just a blast. I was just having fun and messing with it, and um, and that that's definitely, you know, um and and the the the teachers always just let me do whatever I wanted. Right.

SPEAKER_02: 30:49

Like, I don't have to worry about you, you obviously know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 30:52

Yeah, and I would ditch class all the time to just go to one of the art classes, and the teachers never cared. Yeah, I'd just keep on making stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 31:00

Heaven forbid a kid be interested in something and have passion.

SPEAKER_00: 31:02

Right. Yeah. Um and Mr. Tholan, you remember Mr. Tholen? Yeah, yeah, he was a cool guy, like he he just let me do whatever I wanted. I think he drew for X-Men or something. Oh, interesting. He was and he was like an ex Marine, and you just tell me conspiracy theories about like lizard people and stuff, like which I I just remember just like and he had that big UFO, I believe, sign. He was a lot of fun. Um, and so yeah, I mean, it was just me playing around. Uh, I knew I was probably going to. To um be a painter when I was like 11 or 12, but I didn't want to do it at all. Like I was really sketched out by doing it. Like I was like, nobody is ever gonna want to marry an artist. Like, zero chance. And I really, really wanted to marry a beautiful woman, which I did.

SPEAKER_01: 31:57

So you remember how you met your wife, Cassandra?

SPEAKER_02: 32:01

So I remember it kind of I remember it happened semi-fast.

SPEAKER_00: 32:04

It did. It did. You know what? I think I might have met her. Well, I met her, I met her at church. Um, but I I talked to her what the night I saw you. When we when there was like New Year's Day, it was the UVU. You remember that? Very well. You remember that? I do remember that. Yeah. Yeah, I met her. And uh I was talking to someone about that night the other day. That's hilarious. Yeah, that's that's the that was the night I met her, and um and and she's like her you uh I went to uh a a party that was like by myself because I was just like it's weird when you get older. It's like I I really got into just doing stuff by myself. I was like, I just want to, I'm gonna I'm gonna go see the Muppets Christmas by myself.

SPEAKER_02: 32:50

I love seeing I love going to movies by myself, I love going to restaurants by myself. I don't have to I don't have to talk to someone and be like, oh, what do you think? Or like yeah, oh I've I heard this, or like food is like, oh, how do you like this? I'm like, no, I can just like this is a good meal. I get to enjoy this, I get to be with myself, jugger on my thoughts because I'm a very overthinking person. So I'm I'm the same way. I love just being like, yeah, I I don't have to have someone buy me. Like I can enjoy this and almost enjoy it better sometimes. Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 33:14

Yeah, I I mean, and and I was totally in that space. I I loved it. Um, and I went to a party and I saw I saw her there, and she's like, So who are you here with? And I was like, Nobody, you're looking at a just me, you know? And she was like so shocked that I didn't come with somebody. She's like, You don't you didn't come with any friends? I was like, no. She's like, oh, like, I have friends. Do you need friends? Like, come hang out with me, you know, and my friends, like on Tuesday or something. Like, I can give you friends because she's a wonderful, very nice person. Um, little did she know, I did meet some friends, you and some others, and we went to UVU and ate at IHOP with those random girls. Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's all that was so funny.

SPEAKER_01: 34:01

Such a fun night.

SPEAKER_02: 34:01

Um, because I was like the first, like, because I remember I came back from my mission November 29th, 2011.

SPEAKER_03: 34:08

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_02: 34:09

And so that was the New Year's Eve after, and it was the first time I was like, I'm in a large group of like college-aged people after this. Uh-huh. And there's part of me that hates this, but there's a large part of me that just like loves being back in like real life.

SPEAKER_00: 34:22

Oh, yeah. I remember I wanted, I I I just remember, what do I remember? I remember, I remember IHOP and these random girls and talking to them about their lives and um wanting to be home. I was like, man, can't I ride get home? I'm just tired. I want to go home. There's always that movement. And um uh, but but after that, I met up with my wife and some friends, and um, you know, I I loved it because when I got back from Philly, and I was kind of already like this before, but I was just completely unafraid to ask girls out on dates. Like just totally not scared because I oh, it was the weirdest confidence that I look back.

SPEAKER_02: 35:08

Like, so for example, the so funny story. There was a time where I it was in Christmas, actually had it been Christmas, that same time. So in between, I came on my mission at that party. My mom and my stepdad Wayne decide to do like a family dinner, and we did it at the roof uh in the Joseph Smith Memorial Building. And there's this girl playing the piano, and I'm like, hey, like, yeah, she's pretty cute. She's playing the piano, obviously talented or something. And my sister looks at me and she's like, Kirsten, she's like, hey, uh, like, what are you gonna do about it? You know? Yeah. And I was like, as you know, the roof, it's a buffet. So I literally hand her my plate and I go, hold on. Hand her my plate, go sit next to her on the piano and say, You're really cute, you're great at playing the piano, I'd like to take you on a date. Yes, and she's like, here's my number. Yes, I cannot imagine doing anything close to that. Oh, wow. Now, but like then I was like, all right, sure. Yeah. White Mormon return missionary energy. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00: 36:04

Yeah, no, that I I what I I still have to do that now because sometimes I'll be like, like, I'll see somebody in public who would be a perfect model for one of my paintings. And I just like I went to I was at uh Olive Garden with Cass. Yes, and I saw I just I was I I was eating with Cassie and and we're you know, I see this girl who's clearly on a date with this guy. I'm like, Cass, look at that girl, she'd be perfect. I want to paint her, she'd be perfect for that painting. And Cass looks, you know, she like looks without trying to see that she's looking, right? Um, and she's like, okay, you can you should go ask her. So I get up, I go over, and I'm like, hey, um, I'm a painter. Uh, this is my website, this is my Instagram. Um, like I'm happily married, I'm not hitting on you, but I have a painting and I'm looking for a model for it, and I think you'd be perfect. Do you, you know, check out my work, see if you want to come model for me. And um, I've never had somebody say no. Interesting, luckily so far. But it's that same, like, you know, where you're just like, I'm gonna just, I'm just gonna do it. Um, and but I did that with Cassie as well, you know, where she she she was she was clearly beautiful and she was clearly nice. And uh, and so I like called her. I was like, hey, you know, I think I think you're you seem, you know, you I think you're really beautiful, I think you're nice. Um I wanna see if you're cool. Do you want to go on a date? You know, those I think that was literally what I said. And I loved like like it seemed to always work. I was like just complete transparency of what my intentions were, you know. And um, but yeah, so we I mean we dated and um I think our first kiss was at like some mansion house, had like a basketball court in it by Highland. Um Sam Nielsen's house? Probably we had a lot of parties there up, like uh I can't remember his who's who whose owner it was.

SPEAKER_02: 38:01

It's kind of by like that Maverick on 27. It's like that dip yes, right before that house via Sam Nielsen's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we started again, I think I remember that exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 38:08

We we started we started dating and um like we're I think we went down to that basketball court, this like super rich, wealthy house that was amazing, and um and we're dancing. I think like Nikki, Nikki, I remembered Nikki dancing, and um but anyways, people started like leaving the dance floor until it was just Cassie and I. And then you know, you get closer and closer, and then we we started kissing, and that was our first kiss, and somebody I loved it, somebody must have seen because they put on like you know, who was it, Barry White? Like, let's get it on. I've been feeling fine, perfect, right? It was an epic first kiss. Um, and yeah, and we just date, and she she like told me once she didn't want to date, you know, but like we can be friends. But I was like, dude, like, no, I don't want to be like, I'm not gonna be friends, I don't I want to date you, yeah, but no, but but for some reason she decided to she you know, she changed her mind, and um, and she was a big part of me like really going all out.

SPEAKER_02: 39:17

So at this point, so if you're starting to date her, she doesn't want to acknowledge that there's more than just friendship, and or maybe I'm speaking or assuming too much. But uh during all this, are you like, yeah, looks like I think I kind of want to be like a professional artist? Are you kind of keeping those cards to you? Because again, you have this anxiety that who would want to be with this person, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:37

Yeah, I was like, um, yeah, that's what I was saying. Uh, you know, I was I was flirting with I think I was studying accounting for a little bit, like I was getting my feet wet, which is the worst thing.

SPEAKER_02: 39:48

I was gonna say I can't think of anything more opposite of painting than accounting.

SPEAKER_00: 39:52

As soon as I I got to like very early on, like FIFO, LIFO, and average, I was like, no, I'm done. Like we're done here. Um, but uh yeah, and I was also still flirting with military because I I do think I would have been okay at doing something that was um matter of fact, I met a recruiter on an airplane. Um, I was actually going to an art show in New York, uh, and we just started talking and like, what do you do? And he was he was telling me this. He was tell telling me that um in his recruiting, which was for it was like for para jumpers or something. Interesting force. He said like birth order was a big thing that they actually consider in the youngest. I always thought it would have been in the oldest, but he was telling me like the youngest is like they they notice that and will snatch it because because there's a way higher risk tolerance.

SPEAKER_02: 40:41

That's what I'm gonna say is like the youngest kind of thing. Like I have a higher risk tolerance when I say, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:47

I see the logic in there, yeah. And I was I was kind of surprised. I was like, Well, I wouldn't know. Um, but but Cassie was not down, no 100% no. She was like, No, you aren't gonna do that. Um, and I was like, you know, I can do this, and so it kind of came down to the point where it's like, okay, this is life, you know, and and and in life you just have to learn to enjoy the fight. And I I thought to myself, like, how do I how do I want to fight? Do I want to fight like doing something that I'm like just kind of figuring out? Or do I want to fight a a hard fight but with both hands, right? Like, I was like, am I gonna do something that I I feel competent in and like I think I can have a good chance, even though it's a difficult route, or you know, I don't know, just trying to catch up on something that I'm not that interested in. Um, and when she gave me the green light and go ahead, she's like, you know what? Like, I think you should do this. And it was funny, it wasn't Are you guys married at this point?

SPEAKER_02: 41:51

Are you still dating?

SPEAKER_00: 41:54

I think we just got married. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 41:56

And how old are you at this point? Like 22. Okay, right.

SPEAKER_02: 41:59

So what was that moment where you're like burning the ships? I'm doing this, yeah, all speed ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 42:06

It was wild because we were so I would I had no money. So like I went, it was 2012, there was that oil boom in North Dakota. Yep. Do you remember that? Yes, like anyone who could chew gum could go down and make money. Yeah, right, and that's what I did. Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah, so I went there and I lived on a man camp, and I was doing like uh construction work and of of all sorts, and I was living literally in the middle of a dirt field. It was wild because it was it was the wild west, man. Like it was a town for like maybe a thousand people, and there was like hundreds of thousands of people. Wow, and all men mostly, yeah, and so they would just like be driving around with nothing to do, making all like all this money, and there you know, you'd like walk by the one dairy queen in the area, and you they'd like multiple people would stop and they would just like shout, and they just like and then just like roll up the window testosterone, and like it was feeling like this. Like literally, like multiple times on one walk to to a dairy queen, like there was like a Walmart and dairy queen I was walking, and like multiple dudes in trucks just like roll down the window, you know, shout and go off, right? So it was wild, it was a wild place, it was way fun. I like I don't think I would have ever experienced anything like that. It was really cool. Um, but uh, but she ended up getting, and I was I was making pretty good money for like having no skills, yeah, right. Um, and she ended up getting a job as well as a the cook, as a cook of the city. So she came down and we were and we were engaged, right? And she came down and we um and she got a job there as well, and we're like both living in the middle of this dirt field with like all these truckers, like oil rig truckers and construction workers, and all these guys, and they all loved her. Um, and uh we're so that's where we started talking about it, like you know, like we're we're gonna get married, what do we want to do? How do we and I think it was around there where we concluded that that would be the route to go. Um and and so what I did though was I mean I noticed the unfortunate problem of most people not making any money doing it, like yeah, selling paintings, right? And I was like, well, that's not an option. So what I did is um like I looked around for people who were, and my mom suggested Jeff Hine in Salt Lake, and um I went and I visited his studio, um, and he was making a living selling paintings, and he was making wonderful paintings. Um and he tells me, he's like, look, um and he dropped out of the U as well. Uh he's like, look, like making a living as an artist is not it's not complicated. You just have to be good, right?

SPEAKER_02: 45:16

Like And there's no like in the there's no more honest way to figure that out so fast than to put yourself out there.

SPEAKER_00: 45:23

Right, right. Um and he and so he says to me, he's like, look, you drop out of college, come to my studio as my apprentice every day and uh like work incredibly hard. Like incredibly hard. Um and so what is like maybe you'll have a chance.

SPEAKER_02: 45:46

So what does an apprenticeship like that look like? Like are you cleaning brushes and like doing all like the better term?

SPEAKER_00: 45:53

No, I'm I'm modeling, right? I'm modeling for him. Um and and so he had like a studio and he had his main studio.

SPEAKER_02: 46:01

And do you feel like his style was something that you wanted to emulate, or are you mostly following him for here's a successful artist, how do I model this to make this viable? Or maybe a combination of both? Both.

SPEAKER_00: 46:12

Okay. Yeah, his style, he he he know so here's the thing, like um, like how you make marks and what you want to say, like it's so funny because you'll you'll go to you go to the you, right? And and there will be like a lot of talk of like, what do you want to say? And people saying, like, what what do we what do we want to say with our artwork? Um, and not a ton of discussion about craft or what we can do or how to do it. And ironically, I think that can be a problem because um you're hampering your ability to speak, right? Because the the the the the more articulate your vocabulary, the more you can say. Yes, right? So as opposed to focusing, so like it's like so he's he's like, you don't focus on, you know, like don't worry about focusing on what you say at this stage in the game, at the very beginning, just focus on learning how to draw.

SPEAKER_02: 47:12

I mean I think that's interesting too, because it's almost like this like hierarchy of needs but art where it's like, cool, everybody as an artist, I assume, wants to get to a place where like here's how I express, here's like my voice in all of this. But you can't get there unless you start at a foundation of yeah, here's a composition. Like just like again, getting into like the brass tacks of art and painting in itself, and you have to work to get there.

SPEAKER_00: 47:34

Yeah, absolutely. Um, and so it was so you know, we were, I think we we we had a discussion about like um, you know, your your create, you know, uh your work becoming you know, something you love doing becoming your job and how that can be uh perceived as like it can kill it for you. That would happen that happened for me like when I was studying, right? Because I was not studying like super stimulating I wasn't like playing like I would when I was in high school, right? Where we're just messing around, having a good time. It was very, very technical. Like I was thinking about light logic, I was thinking about you know shape, proportions, I was thinking about compositions, and the biggest um hill to tackle was I was trying to get a grip on drawing the human figure, which is the most difficult thing to do. I hate it for sure.

SPEAKER_02: 48:38

Every time I've tried to, I end up just grabbing a paintbrush and just kind of painting it at just one solid color.

SPEAKER_00: 48:44

I'm like, I'm done with this. Yeah. Um portraits as well, because when we're born, our brains are so sensitive to faces. Um, like, you know, you can you can tell somebody from you know a whole city but block down who they are because our brains are so in tune with those shadow shapes right around the eye sockets, under the nose, under the mouth, that like you can identify them. That's how sensitive. I mean, this is the first thing we're looking at when we're babies is the faces. Um, and the body is very similar, right? Like we are familiar with the human body, um, the human machine. And it's incredibly beautiful and incredibly uh complicated. Um, and it's taking something complicated and um distilling it to the viewer in a way that's understandable and not getting caught up in the complications, right? Like knowing what uh is most important, uh what to what what to simplify, what to push. So, so the the human figure, the figure drawing was a giant bulk of my education.

SPEAKER_02: 49:50

I and and and I also thought about And did you know that you wanted to go down this path of portraiture at this time, or is it mostly just this is stimulating to me, this is this challenge that seems so gargantuan that I want to tackle this?

SPEAKER_00: 50:03

It was definitely I knew I wanted to paint people, um, and it was definitely a challenge. The challenge was huge because most people who I study saw studied, who studied with me, with him, like who studied in a studio, they did not last very long. Um because he was, I mean, he's very he was just very strict, yeah, right. Like the the deal was like, hey, like if you want to if you want to move on to more complicated subject matter, you need to show me that you know your stuff and you know what you're doing. So like for example, um uh you know, we we there was there was a desire to show proficiency in a certain subject. So like a straight line blocking, like a line drawing, you know, no no rendering or form within the drawing, just lines, right? You know, you you would have to do five, you know, still life's five figure drawings perfectly in order to get more complicated instruction, right? And perfect, I mean when I say perfect, I mean actually perfect, like professional, high level, something he would do, quality. Um, and let's say you got four correct, and on your last one you screwed up, you you messed up, you'd have to start again.

SPEAKER_02: 51:24

It's almost like that uh I don't know why this comes into my head, but the movie Miracle, like another 1980s soccer, uh not soccer, hockey team where they're doing like the the ladders back on the ice ring.

SPEAKER_00: 51:34

It's like again, yes, no, totally again and and and and and what like a lot of people I saw just like cry and like leave. So you weren't the only one going through this? No, there was like I don't know, it varied. People would come and go. It was like, but I think there was like a solid five people.

SPEAKER_02: 51:53

And was it like Hunger Games, John's the last man standing because no one could deal with what you go through with you?

SPEAKER_00: 51:58

No, well, I mean, most people uh didn't drop down. There's problem like most people didn't like he wasn't like go on, like leave the nest. Most people uh just left on their own accord. Makes sense. Um but so um so there was the challenge comp component uh to it, like where I was wanting, you know, I had this guy, and I I was just like, I just got angry about it. Like I was like, I'm gonna make you like this, and you are not gonna find one thing wrong if it's the last thing I do. Like I'm gonna die before like we I like stop, all right. Um and and I think that was really to my benefit because I I've seen and since and I went to other studios after there, like I I later went to New York and some other places, and um but one thing one common thing I saw with art making and people who seem to to like make it actually happen is just this certain level of doggedness, right? It's just like this um like biting and not letting go. Um and I definitely when I when I I don't think I was there's there's some people who seemed more talented at X, Y, or Z, but one thing I can say at his studio and the other places I went was like I really grinded. I grinded so hard, so hard. I did you know what I did um before I started making real money selling paintings, I did the math and I had worked over or about 13,000 hours. 13,000 hours, like so many hours, right? And so so I studied, I studied with him.

SPEAKER_02: 53:54

Well, it's like if you've ever read Malcolm Gladwell Outliers, where it's like 10,000 hours, yeah, 10 time masters. It's so funny to be like, I did the math and this is where I ended up, right?

SPEAKER_00: 54:03

Like so, like I went so eventually like I started realizing like I saw all these painters in New York who were just like doing such good figure drawings, just so I'm sure that's like the one of the greatest places to be as an artist.

SPEAKER_02: 54:17

Is I mean, probably like I mean LA or New York, if I had to hypothesize. Yeah, I don't know, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know about LA, I don't know the scene as well, but um yeah, and and uh so I I can who are sorry, you're apprenticing apprenticing for in New York at this time?

SPEAKER_00: 54:35

So I went to um a school called the Grand Central Academy of Art. Okay. Um, which is great, it's a fantastic school. And then I also studied at the Art Student League, um Art Students League of New York, and then I did some like Hudson River Fellowship, which was like the old Hudson River School paintings, if you ever heard of those. Um that was a lot of fun. We do that in the summer.

SPEAKER_02: 55:00

And um and so talk to me about like these connections between these different schools. Is it kind of you go through this first apprenticeship, you're like, okay, I'm gonna master the human figure, I'm gonna make this guy proud of me if it's the last thing I do, and that's where you get in this support, like uh appreciation for portraiture. And then you're like, well, I kind of want to go towards this style, and this school is the best place where they have this teacher, or is it mostly like this is the school, and if I want to do this, this is where I have to go to make this work? Or what's your thought process through this journey?

SPEAKER_00: 55:26

It's a great question because the the the problem I was seeing, I was I was seeing these people um on the other side of the continent, and um and they're just producing unbelievable figure drawings, and it pissed me off. I was so mad whenever I'd see it. It made me so mad. Um and eventually, you know, um I finished up my studies with Jeff, and um I was my my wife and I we like stashed away like twelve thousand dollars, like maybe fourteen. And um, and we just went for it. We like I applied, I got in, um, and I went there and I quickly understood why their drawings were so good. Um because when I went there, you know, we did some cast drawings, you know, and and and some other things, but I had access to a model eight hours a day, right? Like eight hours a day that I could draw draw a live human naked. It was great. Like, um, and so the reason why that stuff's important is because you when you're drawing and when you're you're making paintings and really in any any any way you want to do it, um understanding the natural world will impact your ability to express anything that you're painting representationally, right? Um so for example, I'll see like on Instagram some uh like hyper-realist uh uh paintings, and like people are super impressed, you know, but the it has this like weird aesthetic, like plasticky aesthetic. And um, that's a result often from someone just working from photography only, exclusively, right? So they don't have an understanding based off nature and based off experience. And every time you're drawing a person, your your brain is making like a neurological map and understanding of that person of the body.

SPEAKER_02: 57:40

And uh, and and it's also I'm sure that's something subconscious that you have to train your brain to be like, yeah, this is how I'm perceiving this, this is how I have to translate this on my drawing.

SPEAKER_00: 57:49

Yes. Um, and you you learn the certain level of sense sensitivity and also sculpting. I was a I was able to sculpt as well, which was huge because you're you're um I'm engaging the same parts of my brain that I would be when I'm doing a drawing, except I'm doing it at multiple angles, right? I'm moving, you know, spending 20 minutes from one side, moving slightly to the other side, moving slightly to the to the other. And um you're you're you're really thinking in a three-dimensional fashion, right? Um, and so that experience was fantastic. Now the the the the the downside with uh you know any really mo a lot of um good places where you can study painting and drawing is there's like a bit it can become art can become like religion for a lot of people, right? They really have their their thing. And the people I was hanging out with were people who are using like old French Academy techniques, which is great because they don't teach it hardly it you know at schools anymore, and that's a shame. Um, but it was like a little much where it's like anything else is horrible and anything, you know, and you're not in, you're out. Yeah, yeah, right. And I had no interest in that. Like I just wanted to learn how to draw and uh utilize it for whatever I wanted to say. Um and so that that stuff was kind of weird. Um, because I started feeling like I was like in a cult a little bit. I was like, uh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 59:32

Like, do I really have to wear this rogue? And why why is this goat here?

SPEAKER_00: 59:35

Right. Um, but it was, I mean, those those people were so great. Um, Jacob Collins was like the head instructor he founded the school. Um, I think I can't remember. I think he was doing like a portrait, uh painting for Clarence Thomas at the time when I was there. And um, but he he's he, you know, the the the big thing I also noticed um when I was out in New York was like there's a lot of like a lot of people have trust funds. Yeah, like a lot of people. Like way more than I realized. Um and so I started freaking out because I was like, you don't need to make a living. You you have like you're like you have like a trust fund. Yeah. And I was like, dude, I I'm gonna have kids. Like I like I gotta get going. So when I was out there, like um the studio opened up at like eight or eight thirty. I'd get up at six thirty and I got to the studio at 8 30. We had a half an hour lunch at 12, then um then I took an hour lunch at five for dinner, and then I stayed till like 10:30, 11, and I got home. And um, and I worked on Saturdays too. And it like it was so awesome, like because I got so much information and was like just packing my brain. True, just this sponge taking it all in and just being as present as you can't. Yes, and and but eventually like weird stuff happened to me. Like my my body started doing weird stuff, like I gained like 25 pounds and I'm walking everywhere. Yeah, like this doesn't make sense. And I was like, that doesn't make, and then my hands would go completely numb and my face would go numb. And I was like, that's weird. Yeah, this isn't normal, that's super weird. Um, I went to a doctor, I thought maybe it was allergies, and they're like, No, this is like psychological, you know? And it was weird because I wasn't like I didn't feel stressed out, like I was loving it, but I think I was just grinding really hard. Um and then we we left, right? We we we we leave New York. I we have like$1,500 left. Um and um we move in with my wife's grandmother. Okay. Right to like try to recoup our money, right?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:57

And so we take care, she's like really she's in her late 90s. We're taking care of her to strike try to save some money. And um and then um you know I'm making I'm starting to make some money. Now I had some shows I had some shows in New York um and that helped like get some some some some startup costs let's say um over at Cavalier Gallery. And but then but then uh I was like starting to freak out because I'm like I have like a commission for like you know four thousand bucks or something which is great but like I don't have a lot of them and I'm like how's this like I don't know how this is going to work. Right? Like I don't first of all I've been focusing so long on my craft like how to um like tech the technical side yes uh of of what I want to do and I not very much time in like what I'm gonna say right and then all of a sudden it's like time to make money you know and so um I you know I'm just doing some portrait commissions and then um my wife she's like she comes in she comes in this room that I'm painting in and she's like um I'm pregnant and I was like like it was like um it was like I was super stoked like way happy but there was still that jolt like when you wake up from a bad dream yes that you did something awful and you and you're like oh thank goodness like you know like that that like strike um and I was just so scared but then I got an email for a commission and it ended up being like 30 grand. Jeez right and then like the next month I got another one for like 20 and then another one for 10 and like you're like it's working and and what happened was I I did one painting like it was actually that paint the painting of my grandfather. Okay. And that caught some attention from some people and that like was it like at a gallery was that it it won it won like award at the like a Springville the Springville Museum. That's a fun place. So that got that got me plugged in and that got the ball rolling.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:12

Got it and like it was just that one painting which is kind of so cool that that's the one that like started this domino of the this guy who had this creative like in star like yeah and um and so from there it was just a roller coaster ride.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:29

And and Cassie so we had our first son and then Cassie stopped working and then she started working like a part-time deal and then she like went she fluctuated from like not working to doing like a part-time light deal um and we were like trying to figure out the balance right like because being self-employed is difficult not necessarily like being being an artist isn't really difficult in in like the ways people think other than like the very obvious way that anybody who's self-employed has to deal with it right like irregular income yep insurance like all of that stuff like insurance was a wild ride like we ended up like having to do like health sharing plans yeah which we still do like so you want a healthcare plan but you're an artist let's uh let's talk about this right and uh another one was like getting a mortgage oh yeah that's that's possible for people self-employed people well we did we bought a house in American fork it was wild um because I think you had like a I think you posted on Instagram about that story at one point where you're like no it wasn't for me it was a post I can't remember but you're talking about like we were gonna do this we didn't really know how we but we needed a house it was insane you want to hear the story yeah should I tell you um and that painting so if you if you if if your listeners are listening there's a painting on my website it's called bearing it is a sad depressing painting I'm sorry but it had to have been I had to paint it yeah because it was that that like there was two years of our life that was so hard like so hard um because it was right at the pandemic so I so I'm stashing away so we're we're living with my wi wife's grandmother I'm stashing away a lot of the commission money that I'm making because of that and so um you know it we get to when did the pandemic hit? It was like 2020. Yep so yeah we get to the pandemic 2020 and like um you know I we've we've uh saved about 50,000 bucks which like a lot of people can get their first house maybe on 50 50k and I had I had 40 coming in from some like like I guess we could call it accounts receivable. There you go look at you guys it all comes back to accounting like some commission work that was in the process I had you know 40 grand um but like inflation kept on going higher and higher and higher and we're like what are we gonna do? Like we we have no idea what to do. And so Cassie she went back into the marketplace working full time and I was working full time because I had commissions I had to deliver. Yeah you got deadlines but we we had we had just had our second son right and um and what really ended up happening was like just no sleep ended up happening.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:32

Right. And it was a lot of it was me because my since I'm self-employed like there's flexibility with my schedule right and so I ended up like sleeping maybe three hours for for like two years. And I'm not kidding when I say that. Yeah I mean like the and the first year was like it sucked but it was doable but the second year really started jacking me up. Hands started going numb again things going it like really jacked me up like the world became super dark like super gray like super awful yeah right and if it was just me like I definitely couldn't have done it right it was like my family that kept me going. That's awesome for sure. And that painting bearing was that whole feeling embodied right like it was so cold it was so unhospitable um like the world's burning around you and and and when you when you would look at me nobody would have been able to see it but internally it was heavy and it wasn't even that big of a deal like people deal with way worse. I was really frankly being a sissy but also no but also don't don't let the yeah people can go through worse things but it doesn't mean that your experience wasn't difficult one of the most trying times of your life sure um but that was probably most difficult thing I've ever done which is maybe sad to say like maybe I haven't done very many difficult things but no like give yourself sleep the sleep deprivation really got to me and I did not stop like I I kept on I would I would I would work till three in the morning. So you're in your in your studio yep sun is very down there's like Cass would get home at like like five six and I would that's when I would like handoff you got kids I gotta go to study I would go till like three in the morning and I would wake up when the kids got up and take care of them. Right? It was really rough really rough and the other reason why we had to do that was because um like you know uh the more for a mortgage yeah right they're like you you know self-employed irregular income and I and I was I like and I I was making like livable real money and I I I am um but it's like still you know they were given a side eyes right um and so to really seal the deal she went into the marketplace for those two years to make that happen. And because if you could show consistent income salary they're like oh cool like right you can consistently pay this bill at least right and so and we like we we looked around on the market like we we put some offers like somebody put in like 150 000 over asking price a place in alpine that we looked at we wanted to and we wanted to live like we did not want to live in Provo Salt Lake was like becoming way too expensive um and but but like American Fork Lehigh seemed like the sweet little like in between spot like Provo is super annoying. So we're not going to Provo we're going to Lehigh um American Fork Lehigh Pleasant Grove we liked that area and so we we looked at a house um over you know Alpine 15000 uh over in American fork it was literally the only house on the market um and like we walked around it for 15 minutes maybe even 10 and like put down an offer. Yep this is it right and it was it it was like listed before the pandemic it was like 350 and then after it was near 600,000. So it doubled in price in two years. Like insane yeah insane but like we we like you know we saved we like had some investments pan out and like we just we we we we signed the dotted line we got into the house and also we never we never like borrowed money we didn't have credit cards. Awesome my sisters and brothers always made fun of me they're like how are you gonna get a house um I was like I don't know but we made it happen it happened you can do it still don't have one you know um it but so we got into the house and the day we got into the house Cassie quit her job and like we started rocking right we just started getting plugged in.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:06

Just got to feel so good coming out with these like all of this hard work towards it's like mastering this craft.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:12

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:12

Then you go through these dark years of like okay like life is about to be hard but I just got to put my head down and go. Gets you in a place where probably pretty close to your breaking point then you get into this house and you're like I think we're good like I like things are panning out. I got a pipeline of commissions I'm doing what I love. Yeah and you're like all right like we did like high five we did this like and we made it work.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:34

It was the best feeling man. It was so good and I love my house man I love it. We like it's quarter acre it's completely fenced like we put a child lock on the door and then like the kids just are like playing around and the the owner the the previous owner of the house was like a survivalist like person. So it's it's got like stacked with solar panels and he he was a mechanic and he worked out of the his garage and like that was his mechanic shop. And um I was hoping to get like a building for my studio like I wanted like a separate big suite building that everybody could see but the house was six hundred thousand dollars you know and um self-employed you need some cut cushion right so what we ended up doing is just renovating his old mechanic shop into my studio space which has been plenty of space it's really worked I do want to get um a space downtown probably an American fork in the coming years cool but that that's been great it's worked and is that the first time you've ever had like your own studio at your own place or have you always had yeah sort of space for for for for me alone yeah I mean I worked in studios right you know but nothing you'd be like this is my studio my house I can do whatever I want in here screw all of you. Yeah and it's big it's nice cool it works um and so that was rad um and you know he had like so he ate rabbits there was like an old rabbit coop like he like we had this like giant buddy don't need a survival yet like they're like these rabbit coops where the these rabbits were just being processed they were just eating them every day and like I just took the wood and like like I ripped it all out took the wood and built like a chicken coop that I was like I was like I want chickens I don't want rabbits um but it's it's the best place and the thing that people don't know about Utah is there's so many talented artists like heavy hitting artists like down my street is um Ben Hammond um who's a sculptor he just did that um oh I forget her name uh it was like you know first woman to vote like sculpture and see um but he's and he took the same route as me right like and he he's his his he's making a great living but he did the same thing where he just went into his artist studio right learned learned the ropes right and got plugged in and and because it's economics right if you're going to the U or if you're going to BYU you're maybe drawing four hours a day. I was drawing 10 to 12 hours a day. Yeah like within a year I have like two and a half years of drawing experience on somebody who's doing something else. Assuming you're with somebody who knows what they're doing to guide you. It's an important one. Right um and so um yeah and and and and and and there was another there's there's Howard um so that's Ben Hammond. Howard Lyon who's a big fantasy artist is like what two miles from me. Mary Sauer is you know a mile from me. All of these artists make livings with their work exclusively and what also people don't know is like so for example I was I just I won an award at the Porsche Society of America conference pretty recently and when there so that's an international competition. There's like like four or five thousand entries um you know I was I was one of what like 36 winners so 36 out of those thousands pretty lovely and there was and there was like six of those recipients were from Utah. Interesting six I was at another I won another award that was at Sotheby's recently and that had a little bit more I think it was 90 to 100 award recipients um there was like 10 from Utah and a lot of people uh like one of my clients she went there to that show and she's like is this like a Utah thing I was like no yeah there's just a ton of talent here and people don't people don't realize like how how heavy some of the hit hitters here in Utah are and even when I went to New York like I had a teacher being like hey I get a lot of people from here in U like from your daughter out there like what are you doing? Yeah that's essentially what he asked me and I was like I don't know man like I don't know what to tell you. I guess now and like after being I mean part of this community knowing these people better like what do you think that is is there any like sort of like cultural or anything or just happenstance that people are in Utah you know um why are you thinking like like rural Utah Utah it's not long ago that Utah was pretty um agrarian like we're like lots of farms right um that's what American Fork and Lehigh used to be up until like eight years ago.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:42

Less than that almost um and there's like there's still a lot of the a lot of healthy things that produce like um like some stability right um and and there's a a fairly well educated population um but I think when you're like from those and I don't know about this this is just me theorizing here but like if you're if you're in New York and you're in that all the time like you might maybe you get numb to it. Right. Like but if you're from these more rural areas right that stuff is incredibly stimulating right and if you're like healthy and capable you know and and as that populate more money comes into the area and more um educational opportunities come into the area like I don't know I can't remember where Michelangelo was born but I don't think he was born in an urban area. Yeah like I think I think it was rural.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:46

And I think that those places um are conducive to to to creativity being bored right that's what I was going to say is because there's less stimulation so you have these people being like so what else can I do except for go dig trenches and holes and milk how's like oh I'm gonna paint and actually as you were saying that I was thinking I'm like but also like by nature I would say Utah's a pretty inspiring place. Yeah I mean it's so hard like even if you're an American fork you go walk outside you're like wow Mount Tippinogas is pretty stellar looking across Utah Lake like it's a very beautiful place and it's hard to not be caught in awe and even some of like the artists I follow a lot of landscape artists and especially like I don't know I just always appreciate it because I love love Utah so much. So I mean so for people who don't know like who are some of these artists in Utah that you look up to or that you feel like are the like the front line of these like successful Utah artists that are out there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:41

Definitely Jeff Hine who I studied with right you still keep pretty good in contact with him yeah we're buddies we're we're buddies to this day um he's great um this the people I mentioned Howard Lyon um uh oh uh casey childs is really big he's in uh Salem um he moved from Pleasant Grove to Salem um Mary Sawyer Howard Lyon uh Randall Lake was somebody who helped my mom early on I think he's now in Spring City um pretty area and then there's there's people if you go down towards the Logan area you have like Michael Malm um so that I mean that's like seven cool right I I'm being put on spot here so it's like drawing some blanks but I mean that's seven yeah right um and those those people make real money with their work um and it's good work too like it's good like recognized it's not like oh you're like you're a good artist in Utah like gold star but it's just like oh this is like nationally internationally recognized and I I mention them because also they have like like there's a lot of ways to go about art making right um the galleries are more and more conducive these days to like um high output right like maybe true maybe you're doing like a landscape with like a palette knife like really quick something maybe representational but a little bit abstract something you can do like four paintings or six paintings a week something like that where it's just high output. Yeah um but figurative work is a little bit of a harder lift when selling um in a gallery but you can you totally can um and it's more difficult content in general yeah um so a lot of my sales have come through private commissions right I have some galleries on the east that I love and they've been really great to me um but the private commission is really preferable in my view because there's not that 50% cut which they take by the way if you're wondering they take 50% instead of someone being like hey I want this done this is how I want it you're like cool let's do it instead of like here's how I'm feeling or here's like what's on my mind right now and hoping that has some sort of resonation because I mean yeah it's it's a job at the end of the day and you have to make money.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:11

Like in a perfect world you could sit in front of a canvas and be like I want to paint this and I know when it's done I can put it on my Instagram and someone's gonna buy it for half a million dollars. Yeah. On to the next one. But that's not probably how reality is no at least not for me.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:25

I I my my experience has been like I don't a lot of the people I work with it's weird because I had a student the other day who was saying I teach by the way and if people are wondering I have I teach uh a portrait class and a figure drawing class. Um but um that's at UVU right I yeah uh I teach at UVU uh portrait class and figure drawing class um and they're great great students I love it it's very stimulating and I'm happy because you get pretty broody in your studio by yourself um with the exception to models coming in um but I um I had a student the other day like talk refer to somebody she was doing work for as like a customer and it was weird to me that it was weird to me. I was like a customer like yeah like what are we in retail? Yeah like I don't know why not a Nordstrom trying to get a pair of shoes like yeah she's she's amazing by the way she's like I she's a fantastic student. Um but I I rem I I remember being like that's weird but what I found is um it's really cool to get these people in my corner um making these projects happen right because I can't do it without them they will fund my life essentially to um dig into a subject like for example right now I have so I have a multi figure painting that I'm going into it's like 12 figures there might be more it's huge right it's a big painting and it's gonna take a a lot of my time but that's the route I want to go like I want to do the most difficult subject matter I think you can tackle is large scale multifigure work. Well yeah right like if if you went to the Paris salon back in the day in the 18th 1800s um there was actually a hierarchy of of difficulty of subject matter and in in Paris at the time I think there was like two million population and when the salon came the French salon like it became 10 million like everyone from Europe came. It was a big deal yeah but the hierarchy of subject matter was I believe and now this is not to be insulting to people who might paint these subject matters uh it's this is just what these people long ago thought um but it was like landscape still life animal painting uh portrait painting figurative work like oh like a single figure multifigure work like this was the the the these were the tiers of difficulty got it um and so at this stage in my career like I really really want to tackle large scale multifigure work um and somehow like I keep getting lucky where I find somebody who's interested to get behind a project and I think about it more in terms of like um like the there's so much money being thrown around in like the tech side of Utah right there's like ridiculous money like people are just spray like spray and pray like let's see if something pans out right like and I need like such a small fraction of that to keep my life running with a guaranteed end result. Like there's no my my my company's not going to go bankrupt right like I'm gonna finish that painting and I'm gonna make it happen. And um I've had some success with people getting in my corner and being like I want to see that happen. Let's let's go let's go and um it seems to be also successful in that they tell people about me right like I'm gonna have an unveiling at this when this painting's finished and you know history is shown that kind of stuff keeps on bringing work towards me. And my work is not um it's not like my price ranges go from$3,000 to$5000. It's not like we aren't in the hundred you know hundred like like low low low end is like three grand like lowest right um and so it's I'm incredibly grateful to these people who end up like funding art in our community and really investing in me to continue to learn right it's that's what I love about painting and about artwork. It's it's like really just a means by where I can expand myself and investigate the world and see what's going on and see how far I can push it. And I love being this forever student in a way you know because each project presents new challenges and each project I try to make more and more like I try something new like see where we can take it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:27:26

And it's such a craft you can continue like you're never going to be you're not gonna know everything. There's always something to master something you can learn in every project. So it's got to be so nice right for you going back to this like you're initially like I'm gonna do this I'm just perfect. It's this I mean chase that you're gonna have the rest of your life but it's so motivating.

SPEAKER_00: 1:27:42

Yeah yeah and and like in and I always feel bad like if you go if you go into athletics right your body is done when you're like 40s right 45 I don't know you aren't going to be at your prime right but with art like you hit your prime when you're like 50 right I mean and and and I mean the paintings eventually will like I mean I don't know what the future holds but like nothing's gonna last forever. Like there's a good chance they'll disintegrate you know into the earth somehow you know 20 million years from now. I don't know. But um and this is true for every profession but I love that I have something where I can can can expand and learn from and take that on with to the next life you know like I mean what what are we doing? We're eventually going to die and um like that knowledge is gonna go with me. At least I I believe so right um and I love that idea right that I can I'm almost like playing a sport um forever. Yeah you know forever and right and and and I I love and and so so um so that's how it's been for me so far. And I've I have enough work for a long time well for about a year. I have enough work for a year and I teach right I do I do I teach from UVU as just like just in case stabilizer um and that's helpful. And I plan to eventually what I'd like to do is get um I would love to get large scale multifigure work in a public space because a lot of a lot of the paintings I do go to private collectors who are fantastic but I would love for something to be seen.

SPEAKER_02: 1:29:39

So I imagine like not a lot of people see these paintings if it goes to a some person's private estate, whatever. Right. Which like there's a big problem with that in like art in general like you look at the Louvre and it really is like there I mean there's thousands and thousands of paintings that no one will ever see because they're collecting it with like right obviously intent of um uh conservation or that might be the right word but um to keep them but at the same time it's like yeah but nobody sees these now right and so I'm sure as an artist like you don't want something to go behind a closed door like no I want people to see this and experience this and this joy and like everything I put into this because I I would imagine you put some of yourself into everything that you do.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:17

Yeah well I mean it's essentially when somebody buys a painting from me they're essentially buying a part of my life yeah right like I and I really do put everything I can into my work I really just open myself up and try to do whatever I can to make it as good as I can. And and so that that life is like that that painting is like a relic of millions of individual decisions encapsulated like millions of individual thoughts. Yeah you know in in in a world where there's so much photography like that's just an explosion of pixels you know explosion of photons that capture it right and and and into a single snapshot. Like a painting is millions of like different emotions and thoughts by each mark.

SPEAKER_02: 1:31:07

And interpretations and the way that you want to convey that because I was talking to an artist at the I think it was the Park City art anyway but it was back in like August or something. And I was talking to this woman and I really love she was this pastel artist and I was just sitting there staring at it for enough time that she came up to me was like so do you have like any questions or like and she's like well what about my process like yes process. And I was just talking to her about how like to your point where people go on Instagram these people do this amazing detailed realistic thing where it's like In theory, like yeah, you can copy a photograph, but at the same time, that isn't how you interpret what you're trying to like what that emotional response is, what you actually see in the values, in the colors, and this composition, and then putting your own spin on that is like that's a whole other different thing. Like that's to me where the art comes in. Cause anyone, I don't want to be like talked down to people, but like, yeah, you people can take pictures, but that isn't an interpretation of something or how to convey an emotion or create something new. And so sometimes it bothers me when people are like, oh, this realism is so amazing, which is good. It's it is great. There's so much skill behind it, but at the same time, I don't want that to conflate all the other art for what it is, because I think there's more than just, yeah, that looks like what I think it should look like.

SPEAKER_00: 1:32:20

100%. One of the things I hate, what uh which I would hear kind of early on. Um like, oh, that looks just like a photograph. I'm just you know, you're just like, oh gosh. Like, clearly, clearly, uh, we're doing something wrong here. Um and yeah, I mean, there is so much that goes behind it. Right now, I'm doing a lot of egg tempura, which is like so explain that what yeah, what's that? So, so that's like the old, old, old. It's like egg yolk and pigment, right? You mix it, and um and I love that medium for a few reasons. One is like there's just so much going on right now. There's so much color, there's so much noise, there's so much stimulation, there's so much wanting. Um, and and it just like it makes for me, it feels like it makes like like all the color on the screens, it just makes it makes scene kind of dull. Yeah, right. Like too much color makes makes it dull, right? Like too much wanting makes you cold, right? Like, and to and like so there's just so much. Um, and and my paintings at the beginning, like when I was younger, I'd make them very like bright and chromatic, not necessarily in like a garish way, but I I would I would break paint bright things, like really chromatic things. And that was really appealing to me because I was in all these studios with all these like broody artists who were like, Oh, I'm so deep, you know, and and I was I was just like, gosh, man, like lighten up a little bit, right? And so that was appealing. But now that I'm I'm a father and I'm trying to like, you know, um, I'm I that stuff is becoming like I'm getting sick of it. It's like too much candy. Um, I love egg tempera because it's more muted, right? It's more dreamlike. Um, and it it's and and because of that, um that's that's my chosen medium currently. Like I do oil paintings as well. And you can um, you know, you you can paint oil on top of egg tempura as well if if you want. You can't take paint egg tempera on top of oil, that's not gonna work out. Got it. Um, but you can do it on top of egg tempura. Um, and and so and and and it it kind of feels like drawing in some ways that because it dries immediately, you can have these nice like linear marks that can feel like you're drawing at certain points. Like pretty different than your traditional oil aware. Yeah, oil's very goopy, flowy, um, and that has its advantages in different ways. Totally. But egg tempura is very like harsh, and most people most painters seem to not like it because of that, because it dries quick, but I love it. I love layering and seeing that like shimmering effect that starts to just like glow. And and that's the big thing I'll see with with my paintings where I know they're dumb, done is like when I start feeling this glow happening. That's all right, right? Like, like this almost this vibration. And you can totally tell. Like, you see, you might see my work on my website or some of it on my Instagram, and it's just a different experience. I was actually wishing I should have brought a painting um uh to show you here. So it's because it's it's a very tactile and different experience when you see these paintings in person. And we live in like such a manufactured world. There's just, I mean, I understand like the mass housing developments because like there's a huge need. Um, I get it. But like um it that makes uh these intimate uh relics and works of art more valuable in my view, right? Where it totally changes the feeling of a space, it totally changes the feeling of your day, um, and there's a story behind it too. Like if you're looking closely, because a painter only has like one, like one thing to tell a story on, right? Like I was Cassie and I we watched last night, uh Space Odyssey Odyssey 2001. Oh, classic, right? It was Dave, don't do that, Dave, right? Um and trippy movie, especially near the end. Yeah, have you seen that? Yeah, it's been a while, but yeah. It was great. Like, I was like, wow man, this is great, really fun. Um but uh like they there's a there's a huge narrative that can be told within video, right? Where you have you know sound and actors and uh but but a painting uh you're try at least I'm trying to make every moment interesting and every moment telling a different thing, right? And it's it's kind of like when you're you're going down the street and you're meeting somebody for the for the first time, and you're really quickly trying to like you take uh a visual gulp of them and you can tell a ton really quickly, really quickly. Yeah, you don't have the whole story and you'd be surprised when you hear things, but there's a lot you can discern just by one glance.

SPEAKER_01: 1:37:30

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_00: 1:37:30

Um, and they say don't judge a book by uh its cover, and that's true, but like we are incredibly intuitive, and that intuition is based off logic, and that logic is often brought to us by our eyeballs. Yeah, right. And so my goal when I'm uh painting a painting is to um insinuate and and to lead my viewer through the painting and to tell a story, even if it's like something as simple as a portrait, right? Like I am trying to show something that I'm seeing about that person that I'm learning, you know, usually from from from like you know, a mom, a dad, a spouse, a brother, sister, a friend, somebody who knows them, right? I'm asking questions. Um, and then what my eyes are seeing just off my interactions while they're sitting for me. And um, you know, there's a narrative there. There's a narrative woven into that one piece. Um, if we can take, you know, uh a moment or two to just sit and look at it, right? It's it's there. Um and so uh, you know, there's there's these larger paintings I'm working on right now, which are clearly like large stories, right? But those small stories that are you know just just a portrait or just like a still life or something, there's totally a narrative there if you look closely, you know, and check it out and see what the artist is thinking and where they're leading your eye.

SPEAKER_02: 1:39:04

Totally. I mean again that's like yeah, the more I because like I mean, like I liked art, let's say, like I would never be like passionate about it, but then as I've learned more, kind of like gains I kind of almost think of it as like uh I don't know why my brain's going here, but like wine, where I'm like, oh, like, oh yeah, cool, well, I get it, people do this, and then it's like, oh, I start to have some opinions, and like, oh well, tell me where this is like tell me the story of this. Okay, that makes sense. A hundred years old. Yeah, and with art, it's 160. Oh, like, yeah, my eye is drawn here. What like this color is like because everything is so intentional, and so and it it's like almost like an English class in high school, you're like, no, what did the author mean by this sentence? And part of me's always like, I can tell, I don't think they did mean this much, yeah. But with art, I do. Well, because maybe they don't though.

SPEAKER_00: 1:39:46

That's all sometimes they don't, you're fair, right? Like, like I I remember like um, so let's to to back it up to high school, right? Like, I remember just drawing weird stuff, and and when you're drawing that way out of your imagination exclusively, like you you almost develop like a Rolodex of things, and like and you can tilt and push and pull towards these things you already know how to do. Yeah, it's like a starting point almost. Right. Um, if you do it long enough, you just start kind of repeating yourself. But I remember like just doing weird stuff. Um, and I was like, oh man, I'm so deep. Like I'm so deep. Um, but then I you know got older and I started real seeing like other teenagers doing the same thing, saying, I'm so deep, you know. Like maybe not as you can.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40:36

And I was like, I was like, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 1:40:39

That's that was my exact thought, right? Like, I was like, man, I know I think uh now I did have like emotions that I was totally trying to express, and that was valid. Uh, but I'm still doing that now. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:40:52

And and I'm just going back to your point of building that vocabulary and skill set to do so, right? You would now have so many more tools in your arsenal to do that.

SPEAKER_00: 1:41:00

Yes. And admittedly, like when I first got out of school, there's something to like um, I would say I was too much onto like, look what I can do, everybody. Yeah. Like, look what I can do. Um, and it didn't take long for me to, you know, that's not as interesting to me now. Like, I I like I know I can paint something very technically proficient. Um, but now it's becoming more, you know, look what I have to reveal, right? Um, you know, and and like and so and and there's a a fair amount of like emotional um messaging in my paintings that I try to talk about because I don't like you remember me, right? Like I I like to talk, like I'm kind of loud, but I would and I would be willing to wager it's the same for you. It's probably the same for a lot of guys in general, where you you talk a lot, you like to to jab, but when it comes to things that actually matter to you, like a lot of times we keep it close to the chest. And I I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, right? But I love having an outlet for that where I feel like maybe somebody will be able to understand this.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42:14

And it's like an outlet that I think people don't have a lot of ways to have that outlet, and being able to have that in a way, especially like so intentionally, has got to be huge.

SPEAKER_03: 1:42:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:42:25

And so when you think about because like obviously, I mean, going back to like high school drawings, and you like you only knew what you knew at the time and you thought you were doing these great things only to kind of like get humbled along the way. I mean, how did you how I mean, I guess, A, how would you describe the style that you're at now, and how did you get there?

SPEAKER_00: 1:42:45

Um so it's evolved and it's evolving today. Yeah, totally. Like next year, it's gonna be different. It better be different, right? Like, I mean, it's like this, it's this like organic evolutionary thing, right? Um and you know, when I when I so when I when I was in high school, it was a sen I'm I had it was all out of my head, right? And what's really important, um like first foundational thing is taking into account shape, right? If you have like uninteresting shapes in a piece or or um uh it's just gonna be uninteresting. Yeah, right. And I've I've had that happen.

SPEAKER_02: 1:43:28

Well, and just be distracted, they'd be like, oh, that doesn't look right. So all of a sudden their experience tops right there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:43:33

Yeah. So so so what I was doing in high school is I would just like take shapes and and that would be kind of the base, and I would just make something interesting. So you you said like you just start drawing something and then it would turn into a thing. Yeah, right. That that that just drawing is just like an intuitive search for something that looked interesting, um, randomized, yet some like you know, maybe there's some like I was looking at ice on top of my car the other day, like it came out, there's a frost. It was amazing to me how how much how random and yet how much of a pattern I was seeing on that frost. Yeah. Right. And there, I think there's something, uh there's an element to that in art making, like where, you know, you were you know, you you if you're trying to interpret something from like the natural world, there's like a lot of random. But there's but there's also this like symmetry. It's like this organized chaos as well. Right. Um and so um, yeah, what I was doing there was I was focusing on shape, and I could make I was learning I could make anything interesting if I had interesting shapes, right? Then it could be whatever, it didn't matter, right? Um, and it's so usually it just was like whatever joke I was trying to tell or whatever like emotions I was trying to do, you know, I was just like messing around. I was having a good time. I I still do that, by the way. Cool. Um that makes me happy. Yeah, I definitely do, especially with my son. It's but it's like um, you know, if somebody like let's say somebody's listening to this podcast and they're like, hey, you know, I want to throw down some real money for you to do something like you did in high school.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:04

Sure. Dude, let's let's rock.

SPEAKER_01: 1:45:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:06

Let's go. Let me go grab a trappy really quick.

SPEAKER_02: 1:45:08

Hold on.

SPEAKER_00: 1:45:09

Um, but uh I enjoy what I I'm doing now. Um, and and I I I'm trying to incorporate more of like our heritage in terms of like having a feeling that of of of of you know, like a nod to the past and the future of like people who live here in the West, and um dealing with concepts that are universal, right? Like struggle, you know, um embracing of the unknown. Yeah, right. Matter of fact, I'm doing a painting, one of my paintings I'm working on, um I it's gonna be titled that. It's gonna be called um uh Embrace of the Unknown. Right. Where and and it's simply because like I'm embracing the unknown all the time.

SPEAKER_02: 1:45:56

You only know what's currently in your pipeline and this, but you're addicted and passionate about your craft and don't know what I'm gonna be like next year. I don't know what I'm gonna paint like next year, but I know I'm gonna keep going forward.

SPEAKER_00: 1:46:05

Right. Like I have I have a year worth of work in the pipeline, which is great, but it goes by fast. Like a year goes by fast. Oh yeah. But I've I've had that, I've had this situation before. Like I've had like a month before it's like the gig is up, right? And uh when I was younger, it was like really freaked me out. Yeah, like it was like I am like, what am I gonna do? Like I'm gonna go, what am I gonna do? Um and my kids are young, right? They're just small, small little babies. Um, but the older I get, the more I realize like it works out. It keeps on working out. Somehow it keeps working out. And so this painting for me um is you know about that, like just embracing the unknown, letting go of the past and your your attachment to it, and just going for it, like open your opening yourself up to that, like to the abyss, right? Um, and so uh, you know, like I love that I get to do that. And um, and so uh I would love to tell more stories like that, which are universal to others, and I would love to tell them in a public place and have like a a nod to this unbelievably beautiful place we live, and these really fantastic and unique individuals. Like, um, it's and it sounds elitist, you know, to to compliment like people from Utah and Utah and it can get sick, but I don't care. Like, I love the people here. Yeah, they are just fantastic. I love the people in New York. I, you know, I love I love the people like in Philly. I love the people where I've gone everywhere, but like there we have like such an amazing um like little slice of pie here. Oh, uh no. And the people here are are just I'm uh the place is beautiful and the people are beautiful. And I don't mean like physically, I mean just there's a lot of wonderful people here that I've I'm just so glad I know. Um and I'm very grateful for that. And I'm grateful for the especially for the ones who like help me, you know, uh, you know, make these paintings happen. Yeah, like it's so weird to me that there are people willing to fund my addictions. Yes. Like it's weird. Um, and it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02: 1:48:41

No, it's such a that's such like an amazing like point to get to after going through all of that struggle. And I also like what you're saying about embrace um, sorry, we say embrace the not the unknown. Is it the unknown?

SPEAKER_00: 1:48:52

Embrace the unknown embrace of the unknown.

SPEAKER_02: 1:48:53

Embrace the unknown. And it's so fun like to hear more about I mean your grandfathers, where you have one who's like, I don't know how to do this, but I kind of like want to learn this organ and piano, self-taught to the point where he does all of that. Yeah, you did that all his life. Well then you also have um your mom's father, Danes, who's like, I want to do this, but I don't think I can. And so it's almost it's so nice if they could see now where they have, I mean, obviously your sister paints, your mother paints, but be like, they're embracing this thing that I could and couldn't do just to honor everything that has come before, like you're talking about. Like, I want to do things to honor the past, the present, and the future of it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:49:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 1:49:27

And I think your testament in your profession is already so much of that. And it's so fun because like I think you're absolutely right. Like, we have a great community in Utah, we have great people, we have a lot of great talented artists. Like, it if you once you start poking around, you realize there's there's a lot of really good, cool things. Like my uh sister's uh father-in-law, he's a huge art collector. His name's actually art. And he like Art Vendelay, Art Art, Arthur Swindle. Arthur Swindle. And it's just so amazing. Like every time I go to his house, I'm like, wow, like this is they're and like they're all local artists, like he very rarely buys anything from out of there. And so I think there's so much optimism to have and so many great minds coming together for it all. I guess kind of before I end with two other questions, like just for people who are curious about how would you define your current style. I mean, how would you like summarize it if someone asked you?

SPEAKER_00: 1:50:16

Yeah, um, I'm a figurative painter. I tell stories with the human subject, whether that be um, you know, multiple figures interacting with one another, whether that be a portrait, um, the human subject is how I tell stories. Love that. Um so yeah, figure painter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:50:35

Um, and then wrapping up with the two questions I always ask everybody is number one, if you could choose to have someone on the Small Lake City podcast, who would you want to have and hear their story?

SPEAKER_00: 1:50:45

Oh well, it you know, if I want to keep, you know, thinking about the art world that we got going on. I love it. I love it and want more of them. Um a great guy to have on would be Micah Christensen over at Anthony Antiques. Um they he they just bought a painting from me, so obviously they have good taste. Yes. Um and he knows a ton about the art history. Like you asked me, like, tell me some some you know, some people here. I I said like seven, yeah, but there's so many more. He just developed a book about Utah artists specifically. Interesting, right? So, you know, I'd maybe reach out to him and see what what he has to say about um the Utah art world.

SPEAKER_01: 1:51:29

Yeah, uh very unique.

SPEAKER_00: 1:51:31

He's and and and he has like real artwork coming through there, like real artwork uh that's really impressive. I don't know how he gets his hands on it. It's like beyond me, but um there's some cool stuff that goes go through the Anthony Antiques. Interesting.

SPEAKER_02: 1:51:49

Often, yeah. And then lastly, if people want to find your artwork, find a class, find a commission or commission you for an artwork, where can they find you?

SPEAKER_00: 1:51:58

Yeah, just um, you know, you can go to my website, johndarlie.com, you can go to my Instagram, John at John DarleyArt, you know, uh you can email me johndarly801 at gmail.com. Um yeah, that could work. They could even reach out to you. I would send them. Like, I want to say though that this podcast is like a painting, man. Like this is this is your artwork. And I was listening to the last three, and they were just tight. They were really tight, really sounding great. And uh like I found myself wanting to ask questions from like David, right? Like that, and I think that's a good thing when the view when the when the listener can be that fly on the wall, yeah, right, and like feel like they're part of the conversation. Really great. And I'm super stoked to see where this thing goes. I think it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 1:52:56

Thank you so much. That really does mean a lot coming for you. Yeah. I'm so happy I did this. Yeah.