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Small Lake City
Small Talk, Big City
Join host Erik Nilsson as he interviews the entrepreneurs, creators, and builders making Salt Lake City the best place it can be. Covering topics such as business, politics, art, food, and more you will get to know the amazing people behind the scenes investing their time and money to improve the place we call home.
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Small Lake City
S1, E99: Law Elevated - Nonie Ferguson
What if your divorce didn’t feel like a war but a turning point? We sit down with attorney Nonie Ferguson, founder of Law Elevated in Park City, to unpack a people-first approach to family law that prioritizes mental health, clarity, and durable outcomes over courtroom theatrics. Nonie shares how years as a South Florida public defender sharpened her litigation instincts—evidence, objections, narrative—while also teaching her that legal victories mean little if clients walk away shattered.
We talk through the nuts and bolts of a holistic model: pairing legal strategy with therapy, financial planning, and co-parenting tools so clients make calm decisions under pressure. Nonie explains why the “bulldog lawyer” myth often raises costs and conflict, and how firm, persuasive advocacy can achieve better results without burning the bridge you’ll need for years of co-parenting. When cases must go to court, her trial background becomes an advantage; when they don’t, problem-solving and clear communication keep families out of the fire.
Utah’s landscape adds a unique twist—early marriages, early divorces, quick remarriages, and blended families with intricate schedules and shifting loyalties. We explore why retribution rarely delivers closure, how to set boundaries that stick, and what judges actually find credible. Along the way, Nonie reveals how Law Elevated dropped the obsession with billable-hour quotas to build real relationships and deliver steadier outcomes. If you’re navigating separation, considering mediation, or preparing for court, this conversation offers practical steps to protect your rights and your wellbeing.
Subscribe for more conversations on modern family law, mindset, and making change stick. If this resonated, share it with a friend and leave a review to help others find the show.
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What is up, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City Podcast. I'm your host, Eric Nilsen, and this week's guest is Noni Ferguson, the founder of Law Elevated, a family law practice based in Park City, Utah. Now, Noni isn't from Salt Lake, she's from South Florida, but she moved here for Shocker, a boy. And she has since created her own family law practice here, starting a family here. And what makes her practice unique is it focuses on the client themselves, their mental health, what they're going through, and a lot of the humanity in the process, and not just the legal ramifications or what they're entitled to. Now, a great conversation with Noni. We talk a lot about the uniqueness of Utah, what made her want to be here, especially with her starting a family. So let's jump into it. Hope you enjoy it, and I'll see you on the other side. Enjoy.
SPEAKER_04:Velvet Taco.
SPEAKER_03:It's like one of the, I mean, have you ever been to shoot what's the place downtown? Rock taco. In Fort Lauderdale? No, in Saltworth. Uh-uh. I mean, it's like one of those like, flack with a better term, like very like white taco places. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:It's like, here's a fried chicken taco, or here's a salad taco.
SPEAKER_03:Got it. It's like this is one of those places. I mean, I like it. Like I remember the only reason I know about it really is um cool. Is um if I'm talking, you want to if not I can manage volume. Um reason I know it's from Dallas is because I did in a very Utah fashion summer sales down there for a cyber in college. And every Saturday night when we were done, we would go to this taco place, and it was so phenomenal.
SPEAKER_04:And they had so in college you were going to Fort Lauderdale too?
SPEAKER_03:This was sorry, this was in Dallas.
SPEAKER_04:Oh got it. This is the place that it's similar to.
SPEAKER_03:So that's where I found it. But then when I went to Fort Lauderdale the first time for work, I was like, uh-huh. There it is.
SPEAKER_02:It clicked.
SPEAKER_03:Well, this kid. But yeah, Fort Lauderdale is fun. It was more fun when like when I first started, it was in February. So I was like, great, I get to leave Utah in February to go to Fort Lauderdale. For sure. It was so nice. And then this summer when it was, I mean, a hundred degrees here and a hundred degrees there, and like there is no steeping, any sort of do you like a cocktail every once in a while or no? Uh hard yes.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, well, that's a good place for it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, me and my boss have a joke is whenever we get together, we'll always do um uh baca martinis. Uh-huh. Because I mean in Utah you can't get like a true martini.
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_03:And so whenever he's away, he's away from it. Three kids is why he's like fucking it. His name's Eric as well. So the Eric's.
SPEAKER_04:Got it.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, it's it's fun. I mean, Florida's just such a I mean, you put Florida and Utah, especially Salt Lake together. That is a fan diagram that like very minimal. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, no, there's not much overlap at all.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah. Yeah, it's good. And also it was phenomenal to drive up here because I was a couple weeks ago, Galtri and I was telling you about, we I was like, I didn't drive back through Guardsman. Like, it is that time of the year.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it is phenomenal. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And then now, like it's always like that uh like the FOMO of you're like, these are only gonna be there for like a week or two. For sure. Get out there, winter's coming. Like, yeah, and you always have this like FOMO of like, I'm not getting out of if I'm not enjoying it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So I was like, that scratched that itch away.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it's good. Good. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's already starting to fade. So good thing you got up here when you did.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's like once those reds start to turn into more like uh muted rustic red, and you're like, oh yeah, yeah, I'm starting to miss it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And because we're up in Park City, because we're your office, but is this or do you live up in Park City as well? I do. Oh, yeah. So you can enjoy it all.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I mean, like you though, like I we're really busy, so like on the weekends when we can. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Whatever I can tell my voice is getting dry.
SPEAKER_04:For sure.
SPEAKER_02:There's enough episodes I've recorded where someone's voice will like literally just completely dry out.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Or I'll be listening to it back and I'll be like, can I look up just like I could tell they need a cup of water so badly? Yeah. That I couldn't tell at the time. So I will not be a victim of that. Okay, good. Um, but law elevated. Uh-huh. I'm excited because I get a handful of uh, I mean, let's call it professional services people to reach out. And like my question back to them is always like, Well, why you? If I'm gonna have an attorney, a banker, a you know, whatever it might be, profession, like, why should it be you? Like, is there anything you're doing specifically? Is there any sort of unique shtick or niche that you serve? And most people are like, hey, you got me, we're just in trouble, like patent law for I'm like, thanks, but no, thanks. Right. And so when uh I can't remember who reached out her name, but Cali probably reached out and I was like, all right, like let's look at this. Cool. I was like, huh. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Because the then the reason it struck a chord with me is as I mentioned, I was setting up like I'm divorced. Uh-huh. And I mean, law elevated primarily focuses on family law.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and so it's interesting with me because like when I got divorced, very fringe case where no attorneys, no nothing, like it's everything was pretty much separated to begin with. She has her 401k, I had mine, bank accounts, blah, blah, blah.
SPEAKER_04:So it's just like, well, like a breakup of paperwork.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Like, and I go through the paperwork, I'm like, this is it. Like, I expected to be chatchi beating the entire thing. Yeah. Like, yeah, so declare this, declare that, sign here, 30 days, sign that. It's good. And it was interesting because like, oh, I've seen a lot, as most people in Utah, which we'll get to, uh, have experienced a lot of divorce in my life. Uh, and there's like this range of any people, you know, the claws are out, everything is so bleak, and then there's the other side where it's like, hey, it's just like not working anymore. Right. And when I was going through my process and I didn't feel like I had any resentment, anger, and strong negative emotions, uh, and I was processing it, I was like, there's such a better way because there's like this legal entitlement, but then there's this part of like, hey, this is person you used to love, this is person that you shared so many experiences with. Like, do you really want like to try A, treat them like that, B, go after them like that? Right. And every client, I imagine, is so different on their approach and what their ultimate goal is. But yeah, I love that Law elevated focused on a lot on like the compassion, the empathy, the the really like the emotional side of what's going through it as well, instead of just being another suit and briefcase and the target.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, agreed. That's the goal. That's what we're going for. And that's like the whole vibe of the place, as you can see, right? It's so that people feel different, they feel treated different. Um, you know, you're focusing on the human versus the outcome, maybe. And I think that generally leads to a better outcome when you're focusing on like your clients' like emotional needs, um, physical needs, not just everything purely financial or you know, maybe hate driven. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Because it's it reminds me of so I had her name, Zalerie Craycroft or Dr. Craycroft on the podcast a few episodes ago. She was an OBGYN for her entire career and just really felt like I mean, the impetus for it was that she had a sister, sister-in-law that was having these health issues, no one could explain. And she's looking at all of these like um natural medicine, but also like holistic medicine of taking care of all path all parts of your life to heal it. And it wasn't until she started learning about that and seeing in the application there that she's like, I feel like there's this part of like my uh need to heal people, help people, but the way that it's being done isn't necessarily right.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And so hearing you talk about that, where it's not just catering to all right, here's the legal um what you're entitled to, what do you want us to do, like we are here to serve you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, but instead of being like, oh, that's tough. Like it is hard. It's a one of the hardest processes a lot of people have ever go through in their life.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:And so to think that there isn't like this emotional internal battle as well, and yeah, and helping with that as well. Yeah, the whole part of the the picture.
SPEAKER_04:Totally. You have to take, and what we try to do is take a holistic like approach to it, right? Is I'm just one piece of the puzzle and my client's one piece of the puzzle. And there's so many other professionals or things we can put in place to try to make the whole picture better, right? Not just like what's going to be on that piece of paper, but after the paper is signed, is tomorrow gonna be better? Are they gonna feel stronger? Because the process breaks you down. So the goal is if you can come out feeling better, right? Then I feel like not only did I get you hopefully a great outcome in a hard situation, but if you can feel like a better, stronger person, like, hey, I just went through something that statistically is one of the hardest experiences you're gonna go through, second to losing a child, right? I made it and now I don't have to feel beaten down by it. I don't have to feel like my life is over. I can actually feel like with the help of, you know, hopefully Law Elevated and the other professionals we've set you up with that like tomorrow can be better. Like I can be stronger, I can be more confident, right? Because people come through that door so broken. And I feel like part of my job, and that's why I feel like family law is different, right? I feel like we all have this like obligation to not just handle the paperwork, right? But handle the human and try to make them better, make them stronger, because they are so broken usually when they come to you. And I feel like if you approach it that way, like better client care, like a lot of medicine, right? They're trying to redefine how how can we get back to where we actually knew our patients' names, right? Or we actually had time to review a chart before we walked in a room. And I feel like there is a resurgence in medicine where they're trying to get back to that. And I feel like law needs that too, in a big way. And so that's like a huge focus here. It's like we prioritize the human, not just, you know, the statistic.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. And it's always interesting talking to people who find themselves at these intersections of like, because I mean, for the most part, especially once you get to adulthood, life is pretty stagnant until there's like marriage, kid, uh, whatever event that might be. But be in a place where you find yourself at those moments so much, uh usually not for the best of circumstances. Like you see a lot of human emotions in a lot of that.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I remember when um like one book I read when I was going through that transition was um Conscious Uncoupling. And it talks about, I mean, a lot of the emotional process, but like things that I had definitely weren't new thoughts, but like let's call it um you mean either reminders or another like source of of validation to that of being like, hey, like there's something for you that you need to learn in this. Like at the end of the day, you got yourself into whatever situation is and learn from that. Also realize you're dealing with the human. Also deal, like realize that there's yeah, there's like another part of this that needs to be healed and solved from, or else patterns just keep repeating over and over and over again. And even like some of my friends, like I have one friend who his in-laws have been going through a divorce for like a better part of a decade. And it's just thing after another, she just kind of wants to bleed him dry. And I feel like there's a lot, and curious if you feel like this is true or not, but people kind of use this as a way to feel like it's gonna fix whatever they're feeling, and so if they can make this end with the way that they want or drag it on forever, or kind of I mean, maybe too ever walk, like inflict this and paint on them, then get then they feel like that will help.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, retribution. Yeah. Uh-huh. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:But let's back up because I'm curious about how this all came to be. So, born and raised in Fort Lauderdale, yeah, obviously ready to be an attorney. Uh, but I mean, just kidding. But toss it out what it was like to or like that path towards knowing that you wanted to study law and go to law school.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um, I kind of always knew I wanted to be a lawyer. Um, didn't really focus on it too much until, you know, was like a moment in your childhood where you're like I always told my dad, apparently, that like I want to be a lawyer. And then my dad and mom, you know, both really encouraged it. But my mom's story is always that I'd get in these, you know, little arguments with my dad, and my mom would yell down, like, who's the adult down there, you know? And that they're like, Well, she should go to law school, she should be a lawyer. So I think there was some encouraging, right? But I've definitely always wanted to do it. And then um, halfway through college, I stopped playing volleyball and was like, if I I'm not gonna be a professional volleyball player, right? Like that just wasn't in the cards. And so I was like, I need to probably focus on what I want to be, which is law, and started really focusing on my grades.
SPEAKER_03:Where'd you go to school friendly at?
SPEAKER_04:Um, I went to Providence College and played volleyball there. And then I yeah, like was like, I need to focus, get good grades. Um, did got really good grades, applied to law school, went to law school in Fort Lauderdale. Um after law school, I was a public defender for four years in like the Fort Lauderdale, Miami area. Yeah. And then um moved here. But that was my entry into law. Um, all through law school, I knew I wanted to do litigation. Okay. And I always was pulled to criminal defense work because I think, you know, I love family law, but I have such respect for criminal defense attorneys. I think that that's what makes, you know, part of the United States, our country, our country, is that you're innocent until you're proven guilty. And I feel like public defenders, criminal defense attorneys are kind of protectors of the constitution and make law and hold people accountable. So I always thought it was a really brilliant um part of law to get into. And so that was my you know, entry into the legal world, and it was like the most amazing experience ever.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah. Cause then there's you know, especially in litigation, there's so many people who I mean, you don't have to name any names around the world, but there's always people that's like, oh, they're like just slangy people.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Then the law, I mean, a lot of people say in the legal system sometimes can be a pay-to-play type of avenue, but I also think that there's so much good in I mean, public defense, because it's usually not what most people who are looking to law to law as a way to make a lot of money, which but they're also the people who like, like you said, are on the front lines of the constitution, fight for people who usually won't be fought for. Yeah. And um also I grew up watching Daredevil. Did you ever watch the show Daredevil where he's a public defender? No. It always comes to mind. But I I'll never forget a quick side tangent. Um, I was just home after my mission.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:And I got called into jury duty. Oh, and I was like, it's okay. Like my even my mom and my sisters are like, there's no way you'll like actually make it on a jury. So I'm like, yeah, it's fine, I got stuff to do. I'm in college.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:So I go down and it's like there's a couple hundred of you, and then next thing you know, you start to get whittled down and whipped down, and all of a sudden, you're what they want. I'm a college kid for just like this mind to be molded that hasn't been molded yet.
SPEAKER_04:Exactly. So or you're in college and you have more of an open-minded perspective than some adults who have had lots of maybe tarnished experiences. I would go for you if I was a criminal sensor. Yeah, I would you would be on my top list to have on the jury.
SPEAKER_03:It's kind of like the opposite of getting picked last in gym class.
SPEAKER_04:Like it's like, yeah, we'll take the fight and you know they're fighting over you. If essentially one side wants you and the other side wants to strike you, you're like, they liked me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, specifically. Can you say that louder, please?
SPEAKER_03:Thank you. Everybody in the back. Uh-huh. So I end up on this jury panel, which is like wild experience. That yeah, I don't wish anybody to do it because it's not like anything you ever want to do, but it's fun to no one wants to, right. And because I remember when they first called us, we go in the back room or whatever, yeah, and no one's talking, not a single word. Very like this is 2012. So a couple people had phones, uh-huh. And I just gone back from my mission. So I'm just ready to talk to anything. Yeah, I guess. So I'm like the first time they're like tapping my knee, just wanting to talk about it. We go, they do the first stuff or whatever, and then we come back. And the second time I was like, all right, I can't do this anymore. Let's go around the room, introduce ourselves. Like, I can't do this. Right. And so I'd make everybody go around the room, introduce themselves, and then we all like started talking.
SPEAKER_04:Amazing.
SPEAKER_03:Which in hindsight, what the hell? Like, yeah, wild. Neanderth would do that a million years ago.
SPEAKER_04:Well, it makes sense what you're doing now, though. I see it.
SPEAKER_03:I it's it's good to know I don't have a fear of public speaking.
SPEAKER_04:You right. Totally no, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But I'll never forget. So there's this attorney that was the public defender, and flat fast forward uh four years later, I was in this elevator in this um uh building for an internship I was doing, and I was like, I know that voice. Well, it's him, and everybody got out the elevator. We were going to the top floors, and I'm like, hey, did you defend a case that was this, this, this, this, and this? He's like, Yeah, yeah, like I was on the jury. He's like, No way, like, oh, like, good to see you. Yeah. So yeah, it was funny to go around. But okay, anyway, back to back to the main event. Um, so you start in public defense and you get all of that, but then you know you wanted to eventually make your way back or to litigation in defense. Uh-huh. I mean, at what point did I mean this come into picture? Because I mean, not only changing to family law from that is different. Well, yes, it is family law, just litigation and family law. But I mean, talk to me about what led to you wanting to not only start your own practice, but start a practice that has, I mean, a spin to it that you're not used to seeing.
SPEAKER_04:Sure. Um, well, what happened was is I moved to Utah and had to take the bar again. So no reciprocity, meaning you're licensed in Florida, you can practice law in Florida, but we don't recognize that license here in Utah because Florida won't recognize Utah attorneys. So Florida's a really hard bar to become a part of. Um, it's super competitive. There's a lot of lawyers, it's a really hard bar exam. And so Florida is this like no reciprocity state. You have to take Florida's test to be a lawyer there. So, because of that, other states are like, well, then you can't just come here and be a lawyer here. If you're gonna make Utah attorneys do the test, we're gonna make you do it too. So I had to come here and study for the test again. Um, and while I was studying for the test, and this was like five years later, so some of it fresh, but like most of it not, right? You're like reteaching yourself it.
SPEAKER_03:It's a lot of numbers and details that tend to fade with years.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, for sure. And law changes and they add new topics to the bar that weren't on the bar five years ago that you have to like reteach yourself. So, not like my favorite time in life. And I said to my uh then boyfriend, who's now my husband, the reason I moved out here. I'm like, I'm not doing this again. So, like, you know, we're either Utah baby corporate law. Yeah, yeah. I like this is not happening again, but it worked out well. But um I get to step. No.
SPEAKER_03:So what brought you to Utah specifically?
SPEAKER_04:Um, my husband lived out here. So we went to high school together, but like didn't date in high school but knew each other. Um, and then Christmas, everyone would go to the same bar in town, and Fort Lauderdale's kind of a small town once you get used to it, and everyone's there, and we just reconnected again, and he was already living out here and so started dating long distance. And then after a year of that, I decided to move out here and yeah, so had to take the bar again. I wasn't gonna give up being a lawyer, so had to take the bar again and took it, passed it. Um yeah, nice, yeah. First try, thank God. Cause I don't know if I would have gone back to that.
SPEAKER_03:I've had to take like uh SEC like finance. Yeah. And if anyone was like, hey, you have to do that again, I'd be like, no.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Yes. No, it's a hard no. I'm never taking a bar again. So glad that's behind me. Um and yeah, so I was at a point where you're like, what am I gonna do? Am I going to get into private criminal defense work after I passed this bar exam? Um, am I going to pivot? And I found it as a really good opportunity to pivot. And I loved criminal defense work. Again, I think it's like one of the most noble fields you can get into as a practitioner, but it's stressful. And a lot of attorneys think I'm crazy when I say that because family law is looked at as like a really stressful field of law, which it is. But criminal defense was was stressful. You know, you're in court every day. Like there's not a day really that you're out of court.
SPEAKER_03:Um because like I grew up with my mom being a pediatrician. And when I was thinking about jobs, I was like, I don't want to be in a place where people are like, again, going through some of the worst times of their life, bad energy, like all of these things. Right. So in a similar way to be like, Yeah, I'm gonna go be at the courtroom all the time.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah. And and and building your way up through the public, you know, defender world is getting more serious cases, right? So you prove that you're doing well with like juvenile court where I started, and then they move you up to felony court or misdemeanor court, and from there you get higher level felony offenses. So what you're dealing with, it's all heavy, but it becomes heavier and heavier and heavier. So, you know, you're dealing with people that are facing, you know, 30 years plus in prison for the rest of their life as you're as I was leaving. No pressure. Right. And that's a lot of pressure. And um also, you know, they might lose and besides go to prison for the rest of their life. The f their family has forever consequences from maybe their father being incarcerated, their son, who knows? Um, and so I knew I wanted to pivot from that a little bit and not be in court every single day and not have like that kind of weight on your shoulders. Um, and I was still put pretty young, you know, when I moved out here, I was 30. Um, so it was a good point to transition. And I thought, okay, well, what can I do that's still I'm in court because I love court, I love litigation. And that's the world that public defense showed me and taught me was that, you know, you build these amazing litigation skills that a lot of young attorneys don't get. Because most young attorneys chase the big paycheck out of law school. They want to work for the fancy law firm downtown that will give them a nice paycheck, but won't give them experience, right? They're gonna make them a paper pusher and maybe they get to argue a motion here and there, but they never get to do the big trial. And it takes them years in their career, maybe 10 years, to finally get to where they think they want to be. So there's lots of ceilings in law. If you kind of go in with that mentality of I just want the paycheck or I want to wear a suit every day, I want to be at the fancy firm. And when you go into public defense or prosecution work, you you know you're not gonna make the money, but you know you're going to have invaluable experience that you get to carry with you the rest of your career. And it is, you're in court every day. So you become a good litigator, right? Hopefully, that's the goal. And you learn evidence and you become dangerous in a courtroom. And so that's what that gave me. And I'm like, how can I pivot that? It's gotta be such a fun confidence. It's fun. It's a it's great. Like that kind of it's great. It's super fun.
SPEAKER_03:If hear me out, if like comedy is like a thing where someone would be like, hey, like, go hop on stage. You think you're funny? Go, go, go make people laugh. I don't like being in a courtroom is like, oh, you think you're good at arguing? You think you're a good like seeker? Yeah, go make your point, make your point.
SPEAKER_04:Right. And that's where I was like, how can I kind of use this dangerous skill set in a way that it's not the exact same thing as what I was doing? And family law came to mind is like you're not in court every single day, um, but you get to go to court enough and you still get to help people because the last thing I want to do is like sit at a desk and just push paper all day. Like that's not for me. Um, and I couldn't do that after working like so closely with people and families for four years, like I had to continue that um just in a way that was like better balanced. And so family law really hit for me in doing that. And then um, I also realized after getting into it for a couple of years that a lot of family law practitioners don't have that litigation background. Um, so it it's become a good way for me to kind of use that skill set um to my advantage, you know, and to my clients' advantage. In that when we do get to go to court and we do litigate, it's something I'm super passionate about and I love it and and I'm good at it, you know. And a lot of family law practitioners just don't get to use evidence a lot. We don't, they don't get to make the big objections, they don't get to do jury trials. So I get to kind of use that background to my to my advantage, my clients' advantage, and help them better their outcome in a courtroom.
SPEAKER_03:Interesting. Because I had thought about that before, because like again, like you probably know better than me, but X percent of um uh family law ends up in trial. Correct, small amount. And so if I've been in family law my entire life, I'm like, I've gone to court five times compared to you. It's like this is the 50, like whatever mac order of magnitude that that would be. Right. I'd be like, thank god I ever compared the person who's like, I know when I remember like that's like the the litigation for dummies books not on the table. It's like I don't know.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, well. Yeah, and and everyone, you know, and that's the great thing is like the bar here is awesome. And the people I work with, I always say work with. You obviously you're working against them, but most people are super like-minded that get into family law, and then it's like, let's help people, let's problem solve. Litigation is not usually the best route for these families or these individuals, which is true. And I try to avoid it for my clients as well. But what I like is when we do get to go, it's kind of like that's when the gloves come off, right? Is it's no longer um a problem solving world. It's it's a world of legal art, really. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So talk to me about if you go back to the pre-family law litigation that you used to do compared to the attorney you are now. I mean, how do you think you've grown? How do you think you're you've like changed your perspective on the legal system or just like how that's shaped you?
SPEAKER_04:Sure. Um, I definitely think family law has changed me in that you can't be as aggressive, right? Um, a lot of people have this mindset of, oh, I want like the bulldog attorney, right? Um, I want somebody who's gonna rip my ex apart and things like that. And that's not really what family law is. And if you go in with that mindset, sure you'll find an attorney like that. But the goal is to problem solve, right? And to avoid litigation. And again, when you're in litigation, sure, the gloves, the gloves come off. But one thing you learn as I think a public defender or criminal defense attorney is you're in order. Like you're there to tell a story, right? You're there to tell your client's side of the story and and hopefully show that this, the state, the prosecutor can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt your client did it. And that's because you're convincing them of a story. And I feel like that's what we get to do as litigating attorneys, right? You get to be your client's voice, you get to um hopefully convince the judge that your client's story with the help of evidence is the correct story and the judge should rule in favor of your client. So that background of just constantly trying to prove a story, um, I think helps a lot from the criminal world into the family law world. And just, you know, I'm here to tell you why this is this version of the facts is correct versus the other side. And I think sometimes if you don't have that experience of trying to persuade, right, a jury of of a certain side of the story, it's it's harder to communicate it as well.
SPEAKER_03:It's wild to me like the because I graduated from college eight years ago? A little over eight years ago. And it's interesting because I remember when everyone was picking their majors, thinking it was like the most important thing in the world, second to like what cl how's he got picked on in Harry Potter. It's I would always give people crowd the communications majors, or especially the strategic communication majors. Uh-huh. And it's funny now because like everything that I've learned about um, I mean, how to get people to do what you want, how to get things done, how to get people on your side, it's all comes out of strategic communication.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And it's it's interesting to not realize how much of a skill that was until I realized how much it mattered and seeing the people who got, I mean, the promotion, the everything that they wanted to. It wasn't just about when, oh, well, just buckle down and do your time. It's like, no, no, no, they're good communicators. Right. And in the same way, like, I mean, if you're litigating doing litigation, it it is a storytelling. It is that this idea of what you want them to know or think.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Yeah. And and you know, articulately communicating that to benefit your client. Um, yeah, it's it's super important. It's one of the most important things we do as a litigator.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So you start the firm. Yeah. Um you walk me through how like the Avengers got assembled or how the team is has come together. Because I mean, it's I mean, obviously, not just you now, right? But talk to a guy how that grew up when you some of the people that have made it what it is for that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um, the team is definitely why we're a strong firm for sure. Um, and how it got assembled is really, again, me believing that like we have to get back to better client care. And that's like always been my top priority is how can we reformat this equation, let's say, or how can we look at it differently? Law, right? And most people, when you walk into a law office, you and I are talking about this. It's like stale, it's boring. It's a lot of diplomas on a wall, it's a lot of law books. Um, and I wanted to very much get away from that because I think that's separating the attorney from the client or trying to create a dynamic of I'm the attorney, you know, um, and I'm gonna, you know, fix everything. And I'm this superior being type attitude that a lot of, you know, attorneys across the board have. But that attitude gets away from a good, I think, rapport with your client. And so I wanted to create an atmosphere. Where it was client focused, right? Like, how do we redefine or reapproach how we deal with our clients and have them come into a space that's bright and cheery? Um, have them come into a bunch of lawyers that you maybe sometimes can't tell who's the attorney, who's the paralegal, who's the staff. And that's that's how we want it. Like, you're not gonna come in here and find a suit. Um the only time you're gonna find a suit is because maybe we just left trial or the courtroom or something like that. But it is a laid back, inviting atmosphere because the goal is to create a relationship with our clients and not just look at them as a case, right? Or, you know, the medical analogy, like a chart that maybe you look at before you go in to talk with them. Like I wanted to change that dynamic. And so assembling a team that, you know, have the same viewpoint um versus hourly billing, for example. Like a lot of attorneys um focus on, you know, how many billable hours can you get.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it becomes like a KPI for the entire firm. Like you have to have so many hours uh build hours and you have to go find so many build hours.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. And that takes again away from I think what's important in the value system I'm trying to create here. And I think law needs to get back to in general, is you got to get away from that billable hour mindset because it takes people away from the human, right? And so here, like any of the attorneys, there is not a mandatory like billable hour that these attorneys have to hit. Because if you do that, you're you're literally focusing on that and not focusing on what I want to focus on, which is the human that walks through the door. And so that has been my priority here in starting Law Elevated is we're gonna focus on the human and we're gonna kind of change the traditional law landscape of how offices operate so that we can do that and not just say we're doing it, right?
SPEAKER_03:And one thing I want to talk about in the slide pivot is Utah and Salt Lake have such like a unique um, I mean, let's focus on like the divorce side of things. Like it's so unique because I mean, people get married young, which people get married young, and people I would assume would get divorced younger. Maybe. And so even with me, like I divorced when I was 32.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And like I had this thought that I'm going to be this scarlet letter. No one's gonna want to talk to me. If they do, it's gotta have these answers. And if you don't answer everything perfectly, then you're out. And then all of a sudden I find myself dating. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool. Anyway, tell me more about the what? No. So I'm curious. In I mean, especially being someone from out of state coming here and seeing some of these trends, rates, um, or just clientele differences. Like, what do you see that makes Utah unique in that aspect?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I think Utah is super unique in that there's plenty of people getting married young, right? Like that is not something I grew up with, or a lot of my friends did in Fort Lauderdale, right? Like most of my friends have kids in our 30s. Like that's when we started having kids in Utah. You know, you're very, you're like old for having children starting a family in your 30s. So that dynamic is is different, right? And took some getting used to. But um I think there's plenty of, you know, young couples out here that are obviously like getting divorced at a young age and they're remarrying also at a young age. And so it it lends to unique dynamics when it comes to the initial divorce and then post-divorce life, because when you're remarrying and you have kids, maybe your new spouse has kids, that can create a lot of dynamics that didn't exist, you know, when you got divorced that now you're bringing to the table in, you know, this kind of new phase of your life where Utah definitely has that more than I experienced in Fort Lauderdale for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's a it is a very unique one because like even a lot of my friends that got married young, had kids young, and then got divorced young, then there's this new dynamic of things. And so my sister got divorced before I did. And it was fun to see her just like, I mean, use that as a stepping sort of really championing herself to be her best self, yeah, but then found her like person and to see them I mean, not only have like the relationship of themselves, but then also being like, okay, like I have my kids, you have your kids, there's always gonna be something else to think through. I didn't realize that until I was dating someone who had kids, and they were like, and uh, there's like an epiphany I had because like my sister was even like she's like, Oh, think about dating someone with kids. I was like, What do you mean? Like they're great, but I could be like the dad that stepped up, whatever that could be. But then I was like, Oh, but there's like this part of you'll never be the first priority, which is it's not a good thing, it's not a bad thing, it's a thing, and there's something you have to come together with. And so again, like when I was dating before I got married, I was meaning called like the end of college and like very different time than like mid-30s, where there's a lot of responsibilities and a lot of things have to get done. And there's this whole block of a day that kind of gets taken out of any time that you can actually interact with each other, plus all the other responsibilities you might have. And then all of a sudden you throw in like this kid aspect of like, oh, like a lot, so little man, like, hi, you know, yeah, what do I do with this? And like thankfully, I've been around enough kids that like that it's not like I can't be around child, but yeah, it's these unique aspects that you don't really see a lot of other places.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I agree. I agree. I have two brothers and they're you know single in Fort Lauderdale, and um, it's different, right? I don't they're not, you know, dating or even like hanging out with women with kids yet, but they're both in their early and mid-30s. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, very interesting spot. But yeah, but it's fun. I like the uniqueness of it. I like the like one thing that I've come to appreciate more is the connection that can happen over shared experience, which is like the broad umbrella, but then there's like these other very specific experiences that if you share with someone, there's like so many steps, it's like shoots and ladders. You just went up a ladder to like almost win the game because that experience is so unique and it's hard to find people to have that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so in my experience, like divorce has been one. Like, is if I can talk to someone about it or or like seeing them in like the first emotion of like I've been, I know you feel like it'll get better, but it's gonna suck for a little bit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And then also, I mean, just leaving Mormonism is like that. Was another one. Like, if I sit and hear that someone else's ex-mormon, we can sit there and talk, and like 20 minutes later, I'm like, oh yeah, this is like this is my best guy. Like, yeah, you just connect it over.
SPEAKER_04:For a lot to connect over.
SPEAKER_03:So it is fun to have like that's the I guess silver lining that I see a lot of the time is is it helps with a lot of connector I mean, and in today's world, it's connections, one of the hardest things that we struggle with is a population.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03:Um anything else, should we cover?
SPEAKER_04:Whatever you think. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03:So Park City. Yeah. So I'm always curious of like why people pick Park City specifically, because I mean, don't get me wrong, beautiful place. I've spent a ton of time here, but sometimes lacks some of like the amenities of being in, I mean, I guess like a tertiary city of the United States of America. But I mean, what keeps you up here in Park City specifically compared to being in any other part you could reasonably commute to or move an office to?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Um, well, when we moved here, we started in Salt Lake and then moved to Sugar House, which was great. We were younger, we had a lot of fun. Um, but I think being like two kids, people from a beach town, you know, we both grew up in a beach town. So it was like you want the access to if you can't have the ocean, at least have great access to the mountains. Um, because my husband and I both like to get out there and recreate. He grew up surfing, so um, and skiing. So he was super into the, you know, being up here. He taught me how to ski and now I love it. So we kind of just reached this point where we're like, this is before housing prices in Salt Lake and Park City were like insane. Um, before houses in Sugar House were like, you know, almost a million dollars for like what a one-bathroom house, like crazy.
SPEAKER_01:It was your six-bed, one bathroom house. Yeah. Stand up all the way in the beach today.
SPEAKER_04:Yes. So it was before all of that. And thankfully, and we decided, okay, if we're gonna stay here, we want to be up in the mountains. We want to be close to biking, hiking, skiing. Um, not that it's a bad commute at all between Salt Lake and Park City, but that was just our choice. Um, and so we moved up here about nine years ago now. And um, yeah, and we've loved it ever since. We absolutely love living up here, being part of this community. Um, and it's still it's such a mellow commute. Like a lot of times people think I'm crazy. Like, how do you live in Park City and go to court in Salt Lake sometimes? And it's it's nothing, right? And for I think most of the United States, right, a 30-minute commute to work is not a big deal. No. Um, but here people think it's like a long distance, but it's not. It's it's super mellow and you get to drive up and down the canyon, which is beautiful. So yeah, it's been it's been an amazing move for us and we love it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I've always appreciated appreciated Park City because like in high school, one of my really good friends, um, well, I met a really good friend, and he lived up here with his mom, and his dad lived up in Midway. So it spent a lot of time in Summon County to begin with. But it was fun because like I would spend kind of like down in Salt Lake school, whatever, and then I come up here in the to stay at his mom's house for the weekend. It was such a cool experience for kids because like you have the bus, you can kind of go wherever you wanted to, and you know people have e-bikes and that's a whole nother topic. But um, it was just so fun to get used to it because like because like don't get me wrong, like when I was in high school, I mean we'd slot school and go skiing like junior, senior year. Yeah, but it was different than them being like, oh, school's out. We had like an hour and a half if you had like let's go skiing. I'm like, oh, that's like right there. You literally hop on the bus, right? And like three-ish stops later, you're at the bottom of PCMR.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I mean, obviously, there's like a very the it was like the first time I saw like that levels of wealth sometimes. I'm like, yeah, oh God.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, there's that too up here for sure. But I I envision it being a cool place to grow up as a kid that you can access skiing, go every day if you want. Um, and you know, I don't think there's many places where we have a four-year-old and she's already a really good skier, and she's already a really good biker and has her little, you know, front bake front brakes on her bike that like I totally didn't have as a kid. You know, I had like my training wheels until I was six or something. Like, so it's it's such a cool place to grow up and see these kids just do, you know, such kind of gnarly and fun things at such a young age.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, like watching my niece and nephew go through similar things because like I knew I was one of those kids, but you don't realize it when you are that kid. Right. You have to see it like in that third person when you get older. Yeah. And so like it was the same ski season like four years ago, and like we're on the bunny hill and we're doing pizza, and then I I mean that was probably in early November whenever um I remember as a solitude opened, and then like fast forward to the end of the season, my sister's like, Hey, it's um they want you to come ski with them. Yeah, you go to your valley, will you? I'm like, Yeah, you know, I can have a slow day or whatever. And then all of a sudden I'm like, What happened? Like, right, they just have this, and then also the thought of learning how to ski as an adult when like I actually have fears and like it was yeah, it was a lot.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I I didn't ski for the first time until let's see, I was probably 29 when my husband was teaching me then. But yeah, I'm so glad he did, and he was a great teacher, he was super patient, and I love it now. It's great. I'm super thankful. But yeah, hard learning when you're in your late 20s, early 30s for sure.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, anybody who learned after the age of like 20 am I I don't know if I could have gone through it. Right. I had a lot of tears on a ski hill. My grandpa's saying whether we were water skiing or snow skiing was shut up and ski. Right. And just do it. Then these like I'd be crying on the side of like the Tavo Sobird, and I like no, like I'm like yelling at myself, cussing as like a six-year-old. Yeah, everyone just staring, waiting, I'm like, there's nothing I can do. I guess I just have to go.
SPEAKER_04:Right, right. Wasn't that fun? Let's keep going.
SPEAKER_03:Like yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:It was it was there was definitely some some crying moments for sure, but all in all, got through it and now you know it's a lifetime sport, which is so great.
SPEAKER_03:And then the commute side, like I love when people in Utah think that we have traffic and like bad commutes. Yes, like don't get me wrong, like I used to work in Lehigh as people who work in tech and live in Salt Lake do. And I mean it was kind of nice for a while because I was like, oh, it's 30 minutes. Like I get through a podcast, get through some of a book, whatever that might be. And then I eventually started taking front runner there and back and bought a scooter, so I got like five minutes scooter ride to the office and then just work on the train, and that was that was a unique time. But um, it's wild when because I interned in DC in college. Oh, cool, and hearing of their commutes, like this bone guy knew three hours every day, woke up at three, so he could be at the office by seven and then leave at five, get home by eight, and do it all over again.
SPEAKER_04:The northeast is all like that, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Like I would I I can't like even fathom lot like mentally, like being like, I'm okay with this.
SPEAKER_04:Right. No, I I think so, you know, the town I lived in is Lauderdale by the Sea, Florida, which is just, you know, it's a 15-minute drive to the Fort Lauderdale courthouse. But because there's so much traffic, it would take me 45 minutes a lot of days. So like that is zero distance. Like I would it would be way faster to get on a bike and I would get there, right? But that's why this commute park city to Salt Lake is really nothing. It's it's easy, it's not bad. There's hardly traffic. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Love it.
SPEAKER_04:I love it too.
SPEAKER_03:Well, before we wrap up, want to ask the two questions I always ask every guest. Um, number one, if you could have someone on the Small Lake City podcast and hear more about their story and what they're up to, who would you want to hear from?
SPEAKER_04:I don't know. Ask me the second one and I'll think about it.
SPEAKER_03:And if people want to find more information on Law Elevated or get in contact, what's the best place to go to for that?
SPEAKER_04:Um, our website. So at law elevated.com. Yeah. And Instagram, same thing. Follow us at Law Law Elevated. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Easy voice.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Hmm. Who else should you have on the pod? Oh, I think another great person to talk to. He's awesome. Um, if you want another lawyer, especially when he's like criminal defense, um, Steven Grayson, he's up here. His office is super close. He's great. Um, him and I have worked together on so many cases. I refer all my criminal cases to him. Um, he's not just like a great lawyer, because he is, but he's such a great human who's just super down to earth. I think him and I totally like think the same way when it comes to how we approach law and our clients, just like a really, you know, realistic human experience. His clients all love him. He's such an easy person to connect to. Um, like the exact opposite of an arrogant criminal defense attorney. He's he's great. I would I would put him on. Cool. And I think you would have a lot of fun talking to him too. Sounds like it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Got a lot of questions for him.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. He's he's seen a lot, so I can't yeah, I can't imagine.
SPEAKER_03:Because like there's certain jobs where you go home, like, oh my gosh, you'll never guess what Christina did at the office. She ate my lunch again. Right. But then there's the people who like my cousin works in the Air Force in Idaho, and like he just comes home and can't talk about a single thing that he did. That's so hard. But then also like coming home, you're like, how was working? Like, you don't want to know.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_03:I'm gonna keep this one to myself respectfully.
SPEAKER_04:Oh yeah, there's a lot, but I mean, there's a lot he can't talk about, but but also I could see the other side of things where I mean, in the proliferation of crime podcasts and everything in between, we're like, tell me all the tea, what's been going on?
SPEAKER_03:Right. Give me the details.
SPEAKER_04:And he and he was a prosecutor for a while and then switched to criminal defense and does it up here. So he just gets to deal with a lot of unique stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Love it.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, and he's seen both sides. So it's always cool, I think, to talk to someone who's been a prosecutor and is now a criminal defense attorney because they've had to approach things differently. But talk about a dangerous criminal defense attorney when they can read the mind of a prosecutor.
SPEAKER_03:So been on both sides.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:He's a good one. Yeah, reach out. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. It was a great drive up here. I'm excited for my drive down. Appreciation was great. Good. Yeah. Anybody who is looking for some family law services and wants a little bit more human interaction along the way, definitely check it out.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, give us a call. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
