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Small Lake City
Small Talk, Big City
Join host Erik Nilsson as he interviews the entrepreneurs, creators, and builders making Salt Lake City the best place it can be. Covering topics such as business, politics, art, food, and more you will get to know the amazing people behind the scenes investing their time and money to improve the place we call home.
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Small Lake City
S1, E85: Discovery Gateway Children's Museum, CEO - Kathleen Bodenlos
Kathleen Bodenlos had everything society told her she should want – a successful corporate career with good pay and prestige. Yet something was missing. "I thought success would make me fulfilled and it was not fulfilling," she reflects. That realization sparked a dramatic career shift that would eventually lead her to Salt Lake City and the helm of Discovery Gateway Children's Museum.
Ten years ago, Kathleen took a significant pay cut to pursue her childhood passion for museums, beginning at the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh where she grew up. Despite skepticism from friends, the move immediately felt right: "I didn't feel like I was working anymore." This authentic alignment with her values carried her through roles at several prestigious institutions before landing in Utah to lead Discovery Gateway during its most challenging period.
When Kathleen arrived, the museum was struggling – closed for months due to COVID and facing an uncertain future. She developed an ambitious renovation plan that was originally meant to take a decade. Through strategic partnerships with corporate sponsors and her energetic leadership style, she's accomplished that transformation in just five years, earning her the 2024 CEO of the Year Award in Utah.
The revitalized museum now features extraordinary new exhibits like a dinosaur display with authentic fossils, a stunning $3.5 million train installation (donated by a couple who reached out via Instagram), and an Associated Foods tractor-trailer that teaches children about food supply chains. Coming soon: an Intermountain Healthcare exhibit focused on emotional wellbeing and what will become the largest children's rooftop garden in the country.
Beyond the exhibits, Kathleen has expanded access through programs like the Museum Inclusion Fund and reduced admission for families on public assistance. Her philosophy centers around creating spaces where both children and adults can experience joy, wonder, and creativity together – reconnecting with that childlike spark that many of us lose in adulthood.
Ready to rediscover your sense of wonder? Visit discoverygateway.org to learn more about upcoming exhibits and plan your visit to this remarkable Salt Lake City treasure.
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That was the weird part for me. It's like I thought success would make me fulfilled and it was not fulfilling. So I left a corporate career about 10 years ago and I went to follow my dream of working in the museum I grew up on, which was Carnegie Museum of Pittsburgh. When I told my family that I was going to move to Utah and take over a failing children's museum, my son-in-law said of all the things I thought were going to come out of your mouth, that was absolutely not it. We're trying to create exhibits that are not only fun for the kids, but it's super fun for the parents to be with the kids. I will never tire of that. I could be in my job a million years. You have been there but you haven't been back. There's some really cool new stuff to see and touch.
Speaker 2:What is up everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City Podcast. I'm your host, eric Nielsen. Now, if you're born and raised in Salt Lake, you remember the Children's Museum that was on Beck Street. It had so many fun things, from the mini basketball court to the supermarket, and that museum eventually moved to the Gateway. Now this week's guest is Kathleen Bodenlos, the CEO of Discovery Children's Museum at Gateway.
Speaker 2:She also won the 2024 CEO of the Year Award in Utah for the transformation of the Children's Museum, going from a nearly defunct museum coming out of COVID to now expediting her plans from 10 years down to five, bringing in a lot of corporate sponsors and bringing in a lot of new exhibitions to our youth. We talk a lot about her path into getting into it, from going from corporate America and not feeling fulfilled to jumping into one of her childhood passions, which was going to museums, learning and exploring. There's something for everyone in this one, whether you have kids and go to the museum now, or you're trying to find a little bit more creativity and a little bit more of that childlike spark in your life. So, yeah, check it out and I'll see you on the other side, I love.
Speaker 1:I love the name of your podcast because it's just like Pittsburgh. That's where I grew up and it's about the same size. You know population and we used to always say it's like your one degree from knowing everybody and I've only lived here five years and it feels like that. I mean I'm constantly running people that I do know somehow. Yeah, like, and I've only lived here five years. It's crazy.
Speaker 2:Because it's a saying in Salt Lake that's been. I mean, I don't even remember the first time I heard it, but go out somewhere. Oh my gosh, I haven't seen you since high school. Yep, small Lake City, yeah.
Speaker 2:But then there's this whole another level when because even when I was thinking about the podcast and like brainstorming on what I wanted to do and how I wanted to do it, there was like I was like what am I going to call this thing if I did? And it was humming and hawing over a couple of things and I can't remember. But like at another one of those moments and someone was like yep, small Lake city. I was like that's it, found it. I think it's perfect and it's also fun when, um, cause, there's it's one thing to live in Salt Lake and experience small Lake city podcast called that and chase that energy, it's a whole nother level I can imagine, like there was there was one time I was on a date with someone and they're like oh, like they're saying something to the extent of like blah, blah, blah, like I have therapy later, and she's like I love my therapist name so-and-so.
Speaker 2:And I was like is so-and-so's last name this? And she's like yeah, I'm like cool, I used to work with your therapist at red robin when I was in college, so there's that there's so much crossover, it's insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean and they just keep out like I'm now to the point where I just kind of like yep, like of course you knew my cousin from some sort of soccer team, and this is how we do this, and you married someone, I work, like those sort of things, like it yeah, exactly it happens so and it's. It's fun to hear like I mean, I've heard that about pittsburgh, I've heard that somewhat about like parts of like portland and so they're like these kind of like smaller cities where you're born and raised there.
Speaker 2:It's just kind of it's kind of just the social circle and you bump into people all the time yeah, I mean, I wasn't born and raised here.
Speaker 1:it's weirder still, right, like how did I make all these connections so fast, like, and it's just, it's just, it's a friendly place, it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah and uh. I mean one of the like, the notes that people have about it is like oh, like everyone's nice here, but then it's like they have these other motives behind it, Like your neighbors will be nice, but they're like but we want you to come to church. I'm like I would rather the eye like across the street and just like looks runs the other way.
Speaker 1:So I was only. I bought a house in Rose Park and I was only in my house for about a week and I had met every neighbor on my street. They just came over and just introduced themselves. They were so nice and like I've looked a lot of places and you don't always find that and there was. There was actually no motivation. I think they were just curious who moved in which? Is great All right, let's go knock on our door and find out, right.
Speaker 2:Which is great, because I mean that's sweet. That's really sweet. It's like one of the cornerstones of a community in general. I mean you have to show up, you have to talk to people, you have to have like social.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you have to be curious, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah like people always like one thing I've probably mentioned this like five times on the podcast now, but I'm gonna do it again is like one thing I've been trying to live. More is just like get out of the house like nothing good happens in the walls of your house and I know there's like if you're raising a family, if you have kids, like very different, but like no one's gonna come and knock on your door, be like hey, do you want to be part of my community? Hey, do you want this job?
Speaker 2:do you want to meet this person.
Speaker 1:So you would support my empty refrigerator. My friends give me such a hard time about the emptiness of my refrigerator, but I'm always out. So they're like you have butter and water. Do you really live here? That's what I always hear when people look inside.
Speaker 2:I would go head to head with our empty fridges right now. Cause I've been like the last, like this week I was mentioning was in Florida. Last week I was in Chicago and the week before that I was in Phoenix, and so I came home to my sister was over and I was looking at my fridge. I'm like I have nothing to eat.
Speaker 1:She's like well, duh, you've been like what do you expect your fridge is going to be populated? Yeah, you don't want to buy a bunch of groceries and leave. It doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 2:So I agree, like an empty fridge.
Speaker 1:It's a good sign.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go spend time with people, go out, be in the world. And even on the theme of Small Lake City, there was a couple weeks in a row where someone reached out to me like, hey, I have this event, I have this extra ticket, I have something. Do you want to come? And the way, a lot of my I don't even know if it's social anxiety as much as just my general preferences, but I like to have a plan. And any deviation from plan I'm like maybe next time. And so someone calls me like, hey, what are you doing in an hour? Let's go to this dinner. I'm like, fine, I'll do it. But then I'd show up to these invitations and there'd be someone who I've been either trying to meet or someone I've been wanting to talk to be like what do you know so.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to reprogram my brain, and that's wonderful.
Speaker 1:It's wonderful to try to do that. I have a really good friend here who she says I'm good for because I'm a little bit more spontaneous than her, and she will do that too. She'll book me like three weeks out and it's totally normal for her. It's adorable.
Speaker 2:She's like I want to know what I'm doing three weeks from now, which I mean that's part of adulting, as much as I hate that term. In like I have one friend who he loves to think we're all still in high school and can be like hey, what are you guys up to tonight? Do you want to hang out? Like I can ride, like almost like can I ride my bike over? We can play video games, I know, right, I'm like listen, I've had this night booked for like like two weeks, like let's let's plan ahead.
Speaker 1:As much as I hate to be that person, you just it is what it is. It is what it is. I know you get enough planner friends. It forces you, you into planning, because then you know they learn that they can't just call you that night. That's what you're training them, little by little. Little by little, we'll be like on our deathbeds. I'd like to schedule your. I want to see you one last time.
Speaker 2:So your euthanasia is?
Speaker 1:on the third.
Speaker 2:I'd be like now you finally get the schedule. That's hilarious, kathleen. I'm excited to talk today. Kathleen Bodenlos Yep, I got it right, okay.
Speaker 1:You nailed it.
Speaker 2:I'll take it.
Speaker 1:And that's not easy to do. I've seen harder, but I've definitely seen easier.
Speaker 2:Okay, but from Discovery's Children's Museum. Everybody's probably walked by it at the Gateway. If you have kids, you've probably been on a chaperone on a field trip there or taking them to be busy. But uh, it's. It's something that's been around for so long and I didn't realize until I was starting to poke around and do some research. So I was like wait, like it's like 50 years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, crazy. We used to be on beck street. A lot of people who are older remember that.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yes, and that's what I was going to ask you about is because so I live pretty close to you. I'm in marmalade okay yeah, we're practically neighbors. I mean, I live like literally a block away from warm springs park. Take my dogs there every day right, but, as I've noticed is there's that building starting to come to life and there's some construction going on in there so I was curious if you had any information.
Speaker 1:I actually don't, that's not us, so yeah, very interesting it's a cool building. I mean, I've never been, but it's very cool looking.
Speaker 2:I've spent a lot of time inside that. Oh, have you really my childhood I remember there they used to have this. It was like this supermarket section and you felt like you were in a real supermarket and you'd go check stuff out. And there was this dark star room. That was super cool.
Speaker 1:We still have a supermarket, by the way.
Speaker 2:No way.
Speaker 1:All right, I can't believe you're old enough to remember Beck Street. Yeah, yeah, you're wearing your age as well there. Buddy, my memory is a blessing and a curse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can remember some of the minutia of my childhood.
Speaker 1:That's amazing.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I remember that museum very well. That is very cool and just because, again, like there's so many times from my childhood that I'd like I mean it's always like positive memories, unless they're like really negative, but I mean it's those fun ones where I remember going there and just like having fun and running around with my siblings or friends or whatever it was, so I'm glad to know that the supermarket is still alive and well.
Speaker 1:It is still alive and well. In fact, we're building and we're opening a new exhibit this weekend and we've expanded on the grocery store. So it's sponsored by Macy's, oh no way yeah, and we're going to open a new Associated Foods tractor trailer exhibit right next to it. So basically, the idea is to try to teach kids where, like, all the groceries come from in the store, because it's teaching that you know kind of cause and effect, that you know encouraging that curious thinking yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. That's a good way to do it. I mean especially working with I mean, running a museum isn't free nor cheap and seeing people that want to partner and really make it a great experience for kids and I mean again like cause it's one thing to be like oh yeah, supermarket, Cool you go with your mom you grab stuff you check out, you go home.
Speaker 1:But it's also great. One of the things that really happens in a children's museum is all the socialization, and kids need that still so much after everything we went through with COVID, especially young children you know, it's real. I have many parents tell me that that's what they love about it. Their kids show up there with their family, but then they make new friends in that day and it just builds their social confidence.
Speaker 2:So it's good, yeah, I mean especially when you're like if I'm a kid who, let's say, went through COVID and that was traumatizing for a lot of reasons and then come back to school as social worlds, but like even I don't know like the more that we can train people from an earlier age, that there's more ways to make friends outside of the structure that we've created as a society, that where that should happen, and what I mean by that is I mean up until the age of 20, let's call it 23 you're reliant on your education as what your social circles are, from the most early ones outside of your child, outside of your home, till all right, like you have a degree, you're, you're an adult. Go do something and if you don't go to school.
Speaker 2:Let's call it 18. And then that's one thing I hear about so much from people is they'll get out of school, like I mean, I mean everybody from late twenties, thirties, forties and on. They're like I don't know how to meet people. I don't know where to go to meet people. And so the more that we can instill this um, I don't want to say pressure, but like show them that hey, look, like, oh, you can run into someone in here and like talk to someone and say hey, like let's have a play date and go hang out, and so the can have these natural interactions in society, no matter your age, whether you're holding on to your mom's hand and crossing the road, or if you want to go meet someone and grab a drink, like that's, it's skills that we all need.
Speaker 2:I totally agree with you, like I want to hear more about your back Cause like you've been a lot of different places.
Speaker 1:I have, I mean from Pittsburgh, but walk me through this like uh, my trajectory, yeah, Well, so I I left a corporate career about 10 years ago and I went to follow my dream of working in the museum I grew up on, which was Carnegie museum of Pittsburgh, and, um, it was like a big pay cut. I had to, um, basically pleasantly persist with the HR department to get an interview, because sometimes with museums it's hard to have an entry point if you have a totally different background. But I was convinced I had transferable skills and of course, it was a learning curve to work in a museum. It's just very different than a corporate environment, but I fell in love with it. Getting to see the hidden collections was really the amazing part of it.
Speaker 1:The stuff you never see, you know, because it's not out on the floor and it's massive. And then from there, I took a promotion.
Speaker 2:I want to stop there for a second Talk to me about this calling Cause. There's so many people that again like if there's, if there's this, this not knowing how to meet people is the first one. The second conversation I have the most with people is I've been doing what everybody told me to do. I've been following these career steps. I've reached this point. I don't know how I got here. I don't really like it. I don't know what to do. So we'd love to hear a little more of like that decision to be like all right, corporate America, like there's actually something I want to do and a little insight into that no-transcript and it was lucrative and I worked really hard and I think that was the weird part for me.
Speaker 1:It's like I thought I thought success would make me fulfilled and it was not fulfilling at all. It was so weird I actually liked what I did too, which also added a layer of weird that I wasn't content and I love history, I love art and I love architecture and, like I said, I grew up on that museum and I thought it would be cool to work behind the scenes and try to work with the scientists and everything and promote them. So the job sounded really cool to me and sounded challenging and I had to take a big pay cut. A lot of my friends were like have you gone mad?
Speaker 2:You've worked your tail off, so I was like probably, but yeah, it was weird.
Speaker 1:As soon as I started, even though there were so many challenges to learn, the environment and the work, I just loved it. I didn't feel like I was working anymore and I thought, wow, this is like it's right for me. So I just kind of fell into it.
Speaker 2:I guess you could say yeah, no, I love that Because it takes action right, because there's so many people that I mean have felt similar. They're like well, I'm successful by a lot of definitions people would give me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm doing well, but something doesn't feel right.
Speaker 2:And so it's like hard to make sense of all of these conflicting emotions, but the only thing that really does pull you out of these conflicting emotions is action. And so for you to be like I think this is what I want to do, which is I like that you went back to be like well, I like this. I've known that I've grown to love art, history, architecture, kind of the finer things of life, and I feel like it stemmed from this, because anytime I talk to someone where they feel like let's call it lost, like well, when was the last time you felt joy? When was the last time you felt this? And sometimes for people it's like I was, I was a kid, and the more that we can be in a childlike state of play, the happier that we will be, the more joy we'll bring in our process, which starts a whole pinwheel of things you just gave me goosebumps.
Speaker 1:Well said, that's kind of what we live by at the Children's Museum. Right, and more of us should yeah.
Speaker 2:It's kind of the whole concept, honestly, what you just said. Yeah, there's a book I read and it's written as like kind of like a parable, and it's called oh my gosh, I. And it's called oh my gosh, I'll think of it later. But the basis is this guy he's trying to be successful, he's in sales and one of his mentors is like, oh, you've got to meet with this guy. He's helped so many of my friends go do it. And he's like, okay, he's going to give me typical sales knowledge, go on.
Speaker 2:But it's almost like a Christmas carol takes him to all these different people and there's all these like lessons they learn and one of them he goes to he's like, oh, you have to go meet my friend so and so in marketing. She's, I mean, super successful, company's great, like all the buzzwords. But they walk into one of the meetings and it's just like a bunch of easels and crayons and just like all this stuff. He's like, oh, is this like the daycare? He's like, no, no, no, no, come on in.
Speaker 2:And so that's one thing I personally believe in is the more that you can lean into that childlike state and forget about the responsibilities, forget about what's on your plate and your deliverables and your deadlines and it's end of quarter and really just start to enjoy it. Like that was one thing that I found. I mean two things. Like one, I started painting about two and a half years ago. Cool, and because, like so much of my brain, especially professionally, is so pragmatic, it's so numeric, it's so structured, it's so process driven that I needed something to just pull me out of that.
Speaker 2:It really does too, doesn't it and it was one of those things I never really cause. I took art classes or I would draw, be like, yeah, I suck at this, whatever, moving on, let's go play soccer. But I would. It was the first. I'm like no, no, no, we're trying at this. And it was weird to be like there was one time I was painting this apple. It was like the first few months and I was like kept looking like this is so stupid, I hate this, I suck at this. Someone comes behind me like wow, that's really good. And in my head I'm like shut up.
Speaker 1:I'm like I know you want is pretty good. Isn't that weird? I always do that when I paint too. I'm self-taught, and what I'll do is I'll take a picture because I'm a person. I want to destroy things. If I don't like the painting, I want to get rid of it because I'm like oh, that was a mistake. And I do the same thing now.
Speaker 2:I take a picture and I give myself a day think I like doing this, I think I like doing that and to your point of it felt didn't feel like work anymore. I feel like you were being yourself and I remember the first time I recorded which was in was like again goosebumps, like all right, I don't know if this is the end, but this is part of the journey and we're just going to keep pulling at this.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. I love that you found it.
Speaker 2:We're still. It's a journey, not a destination, and I try to keep like.
Speaker 1:But you found something in it and that's, that's the you can. You can feel that when it happens right Exactly and like that.
Speaker 2:That feeling is a very unique one that I want everybody to find, but know that not everyone will.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and you know you said something earlier that made me think of something. So when you say children's museum, I think people imagine like they just drop their kid off, like it's daycare, and what really happens is when the parents have to stay with the kids in the children's museum. Right, we have a great operations team, but they can't watch all these.
Speaker 2:It's not a daycare.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just have too many moving parts right, too many kids and too many exhibits. But what's really cool is that we're trying now, with our new train exhibit and our dinosaur exhibit and another exhibit that Intermountain Healthcare is bringing on, we're trying to create exhibits that are not only fun for the kids but it's super fun for the parents to be with the kids and that's when you really see that joy and that discovery, because the parents are learning right alongside. The kids are just having a blast either way. So it's um, it really made me think of that when you said that earlier about getting out of our own heads. I think that's something that children's museum can do for families is it can bring a lot of joy and fun and, just, you know, time together. That's sort of different than other things that you might do and kind of spark a different a different experience with your family.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I mean, life is all about shared experiences and especially it's hard when I'm an adult. I have a kid like yeah, I don't really know what, I'm not going to go on the playground with you or I might get stuck, but there, are these experiences where you can meet in the middle and you can both find yourself having that joy in the process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's, it seems to be working. And you know, I think I think when parents are having as much fun as the kids, it makes the kids see their parents a little bit different too. You know a more playful side, and it's funny because I'm such a geek Like I go to museums because I want to geek out. But the number one reason that most normal people go to museums is they want to spend time with friends and family. Exactly what you just said Love that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Anyway, coming back to it, so sure, so you decide to go work at the museum, you, you feel this, this calling towards it more alignment. But then I mean, let's pick up from there. I mean, what did the journey go from that point?
Speaker 1:So it was wonderful. I absolutely loved Carnegie. My role there was in marketing and what I was trying to do was get the scientists who were going on expeditions. They were super cool but they weren't getting much media attention and I think it was because they're brilliant and they speak about their work in such depth, right, and they have such a deep understanding. And you know, I think we're all guilty of this when you really understand something, well, sometimes you pick up in the middle because you're like, well, the beginning is obvious.
Speaker 1:But you know, to a lay person like me, I didn't understand the beginning and I needed to understand it, and so we found some innovative ways to get them in front of a lot of people, and one was we did a live stream. It was just me and my iPhone and a tripod and I would go in their hidden collections and I would just have them talk about their collections, and it really took off. I mean, npr covered it, other museums adopted it and we even had bartenders from Ireland tuning in and like posting questions. You know, it was like appealing to a wide range of people. It was really, really fun. So we did some innovation and they were great sports and they got them on the map, you know, because people are like holy cow. That's really interesting and then, weirdly, that simultaneously helped them in their their scientific endeavors, because a lot of times it's just you know people just aren't aware of what they're collecting, that kind of thing, especially when you have a museum like that.
Speaker 2:Like I mean, there was a podcast. One of my favorite podcasts is revisionist history with Malcolm Gladwell. He did an episode on the Louvre and talks about how many pieces that they have and what you see in the museum. No matter how many times they rotate things out, some things are never going to see the light of day. Some things are going to be there forever but you don't know until you like again, like start highlighting it and give away for people to understand that and give way to time, chime in. So if I'm a bartender, I'm like well, I don't know, I got nothing else. I can watch this while I work.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yeah, so. So I had some cool, cool experiences there. I absolutely loved it. And then I decided to take a vice president role at Cincinnati Museum Center and the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center. It's all under the same umbrella and that was super interesting. Cincinnati Museum Center is in an old Art Deco train station. It's like the Justice Center, you know. If you can picture that, that's what it looks like with that, you know, half dome. It's really beautiful and it was beautifully renovated.
Speaker 1:Right before I got there and my work there was a little bit more diverse. I was doing operations, fundraising, a bunch of different stuff. It was super fun. We brought in some really thought provoking exhibits at the National Underground Railroad Freedom Center. One was looking at the human trafficking that goes up and down 75 corridor. It was really amazing. It was made by a student and she basically would take. It was very edgy and you would be led through as if you were being trafficked, wow. So it was very, very powerful and it brought up some really interesting discussions in that community and I was really happy as a clam there. I love my team, I loved everything about it. But then a ton of us got furloughed because of COVID, yeah, and I hung in there for a little bit, planning to go back, but I'm not a girl who can't sit home for three months.
Speaker 2:You know I was like it's only so much sourdough you can make.
Speaker 1:That's the truth of it. Man, I painted a couple of huge paintings. I'm like I need a job, I need a JLB. So, um, I put on some feelers and I found this position and at that time, the children's museum was really struggling, um, largely due to COVID, I mean high touch museum.
Speaker 1:You can only imagine, um and so it was actually, um shuttered for three months and then when we came back, you know there was timed entry. You can only let so many people in at once. We had to clean all everything all the time, um, and we still clean a lot, but you know, I mean it was to a different, different, different time, um, so it took us a little bit to come back. But we have, I mean we did within a couple of years and, um, a lot of it was just finding um new corporate sponsors that would fund, you know, a lot of these new exhibits and our. My 10 year plan on my mind when I took the job is like I would love to have the whole museum renovated in 10 years and we have such an amazing team we're we're actually going to accomplish that in five years. I can't believe it. I'm saying that, but it's the truth. So, yeah, it shows you how much people love the children's museum here yeah again, because they all remember the back.
Speaker 1:They do, they do remember it yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's an easy end because people are like I love that place. That's the person people say to me.
Speaker 2:They think about it for a minute and they go oh, I love that place it's a good response, yeah it's not like a door shut yeah there's a couple places you could probably work at and try to fundraise, like not even maybe Right, but I mean talk to me about what, like mentally, because again, like from Pittsburgh then you go to Ohio, I mean we're like I guess we'll try out Salt Lake. Did you have any touchpads before that? What was your thoughts on the geography in general before you got here?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, when I told my family that I was going to move to Utah and take over a failing children's museum, my son-in-law said of all the things I thought were going to come out of your mouth, that was absolutely not it. So, yeah, but I knew I would love hiking out here and originally I had thought I would just come out for about four or five years and then head back, because most of my families were all spread out all over the East Coast but they're all back there. But I came out here and I thought you know, I'm gonna have to take up knitting and become a cat lady, because who am I going to meet in the middle of COVID, you know? And this place is amazing.
Speaker 1:Like I made friends right out of the gate and I've made friends everywhere I've ever lived, but sometimes it takes a while. This place I'll tell you what I had friends, sorry, I had friends right away and everybody's so generous. They introduced me to their friends and I just kept them and made new friends. So after I had all that happen, I'm like I don't want to leave this place. I love it, it's gorgeous and I love the people here and I just felt so happy.
Speaker 2:So I bought a house.
Speaker 1:It's hard to hate it.
Speaker 2:No, I love that, yeah, so you get here it. No, I love that, yeah, so so you get here. You're like all right, we're going to renovate this, we're going to bring this back to life. Um, I mean, talk to me about how I mean something. I mean, whether it be these corporate sponsors that made it happen or the team that made it happen, cause that's a I mean, that's a big task to do so much.
Speaker 1:It's huge and you know, at first I mean it. You know a lot of that was fundraising and kind of flipping the model where we fundraise, we get the money and then we build, so we're we're financially stable, and then we're in this unique position now where our supporters have given us the funds and they're on our roster for our build, so that's like the perfect place to be when you're in a museum. So I would say the board and the fundraising was like I don't call it easy because everything takes time and it's hard work, right, but relatively easy when you think about the brand equity, I guess is what I'm trying to say. People know what we are and they have a memory of it.
Speaker 1:So it's not as hard as fundraising for something that you have to first educate them what it even is, and then you know so. So I felt like that, um, you know, the the, um, the love of the place was also really helpful in us building it. And then I have an amazing team. I mean, I have a. I have a diverse and, um, really young team and you know there's so much great work, ethic and, you know, so many great ideas, like you know, just a lot of innovation. I try to run it, you know, try to manage, like I like to be managed, where I have some room to, you know, make mistakes and learn from them and also come up with some wild ideas that end up working right. So, you know, and I feel like the team has really responded beautifully to that and they and they're just worked so well together. It's like a very good vibe, you know so.
Speaker 2:I mean especially when, like, it's one thing to be in corporate office everybody has their job, do your thing, whatever, and a lot of financial motivation. But when you get to a place where it's like, hey, like we all agree, we're not like this isn't. We're not here for the money, right, we're here because we do want to make this an impactful place, and that's when I mean a lot of the greatest ideas come together and the people actually give.
Speaker 1:I think you're so right about that and I think that you know I I'm still idealistic and I still think the glass is half full, you know.
Speaker 1:But but a lot of the earlier career people on my team, they're they're right there with me, they're very idealistic and they believe in our mission and that's something I really hire for. I asked them two things. I'm like what do you do if you don't know something? If they tell me they research a little bit or they ask some people questions, I'm like great, you know, that's somebody who's like going to try to figure things out a little bit, cause, obviously, nonprofits, we don't have a bunch of people just sitting around doing research. We, you know, we, we got to be a little scrappy, um. And then the other thing I asked him is what do you, what do you think about our mission and do you, do you care about it? And if they tell me they really care, they're excited or they love museums or they want to just be part of something that helps kids, I know that we've got a winner, you know. So that's how we hire. We look for people that, like you said, you know, really are engaged with us and what we're trying to do. So what is the mission? So, you know, honestly, we just want it to be a fun place for kids to learn and for all kids.
Speaker 1:You know, and I'm really proud of our philanthropy team because they really worked well on trying to grow our museum inclusion fund, which helps kids who might not have a chance to come to the museum get to come, and we partner with other nonprofits and we fundraise for the tickets our own tickets and then we give them to the other nonprofits. And we also have a great program called access for all, which, um is a really reduced um, um, um, admission price for anybody who is like on any kind of public assistance and it's it's just really well utilized and, um, you know, it's great because for me as a kid, um, my parents didn't have money for us to travel and and do a lot and but we did get to go to the museum a lot and I feel like for me, that's where it really opened my mind to what's out there. You know, traveling to go see this stuff someday, that was my dream. Or just understanding like, wow, somebody painted that. You know, just standing in front of a big artwork like a human being made that look like. Whatever you know, whatever this is, you know the scene.
Speaker 1:So I just thought, wow, would it be cool if we can expand that program and get as many kids in as we possibly can, who maybe you know wouldn't come otherwise. And um, and I was so happy we were able to get some funding it was about two years ago from First Utah Bank and they funded our summer camp scholarship program and I mean it's impactful, right. Kids are socializing and learning and playing in the museum and what a great way to spend your summer. So it's just a win-win. It feels good to even talk about it and I'm very proud of our team for working so hard to make you know all that happen pretty well-known local artists, um, both like religious and fantasy and like sci-fi.
Speaker 2:But he was talking about how, when he grew up, there's this age that kids just kind of stopped drawing, stopped coloring, stopped thinking. But he never did, he just kind of kept going with it. And I think that we as a society definitely an american society have said oh no, no, don't do this. Like, you need to go go play sports, you can get a scholarship. Go get good grades, so you can get a scholarship. Go do all of these things.
Speaker 2:Because there's like like a quote roi attached to it, when, in reality, the people that I've seen who've leaned into their creativity and have really built those muscles, are the ones that have come, been the most successful and been the most fun during it. Because, again, like, creativity is such an interesting word and a lot of people like, if I ask someone, are you creative? Creative, like, oh, I could never paint, I can never draw, I'm like no, no, no, no, no, that's artistry, right, let's come back to this. So creativity is just is a mindset and a way to approach something, cause I mean, like you were talking with, uh, in your interview process, being like, well, if you D8, id8, id8, that's the word about how to even get from point A to point B. Right, you're right.
Speaker 2:But also to even be like, eh, we could do it this way, we could do it that way, we could come over under through back, loop back around, and so, the more that we can open up people's brains to really go from tell me what to do and how to do it to how about this? That's where so much value is created, so much value is created. And so, again, another one of those things we can just help kids be more kids and help us create a way for everybody to have that opportunity. What else could you ask for?
Speaker 1:No, you're absolutely right, and that's the other component of children's museums that we really strive for and I think we nail it. But we really try to give that moment of wonder, like where there's just like that wow moment for kids. And I'll tell you what I will never tire of that I could be in my job a million years and when I walk through those galleries and I hear kids just freaking out, they're like, oh, wow, you could press this button and then this thing happens, like they're just, they're over the moon. And this one, when we first put the dinosaur exhibit in, this kid must have come on a field trip with his class and he was like explaining what was going to happen to his grandmother and his mom and they were going up the piano stairs, going into the museum and they the mom and the grandmother were just surprised they were making the music and this kid was like, don't worry about that, where do you see these dinosaurs? They got her utah raptor. You could touch the bones. Like it was just adorable.
Speaker 1:I was like I wish I had my, I wish, I wish I had phone ready and I could have captured all that. It was like gorgeous. So you like, just like you said, just igniting that curiosity. And I think if you experience that when you're young, whatever it is, whatever's getting you all excited, you know if you keep, if you keep a touch point there, you'll stay. You know as equally engaged as an adult and want to keep learning, and to me that's really where you know. I feel like the brain just turns on when you keep that. You know, keep that gray matter, just high, energized and you're super curious.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, there's a quote I've stuck with a lot recently where I mean the opposite of depression isn't happiness, the opposite of depression is expression, and so the more that we can express ourselves, especially in any creative ways, artistic ways, whatever it can be then the less, in theory, depressed that you'll be.
Speaker 2:It's fair and so I mean even in my life and I'm curious if you have the same feeling. But like, if I'm ever like overstressed or I feel like I'm in my head or I can't get out, I'm like when's the last time I painted? And it'll be like it was three weeks ago. I'll be like cool, we're painting because we just need to sit in front of something and just completely go, just on the other side of things.
Speaker 1:Now, you're so right about that and you know what's interesting too. I read a study on painting because I don't consider myself very good, and you know I don't have. I don't think I'm a natural talent, I think it's just good for me and no matter what your outcome according to the study no matter, I mean, even if you're just painting, you know straight lines across a canvas it's doing stuff to your brain. That's really healthy. And I was like, wow, no wonder I enjoyed, even though a lot of times my panties are horrible. That's totally fine, you know, and I don't believe you that they're horrible but because that's what I say to myself.
Speaker 2:But also like there's also this weird culture of like you can't have a hobby you're bad at like everything everything you have to do you have to be good at it. It has to be something you can show people like no, go out there and suck, like it's not, like I picked up. Like the first paint class I ever took is like all right, we're just going to draw lines.
Speaker 1:All right, draw a squiggle line and I'm like even then I'm like sweating, like I don't know, it's so much pressure to think I'm gonna go out and try something new and I'm just gonna crush it. You're right, but for some reason we put that pressure on ourselves. Exactly. That's so true. That's. That's really insightful.
Speaker 2:We do do that and especially to give yourself like this little microcosm where you can fail and be like oh cool, like this mark sucks, cool, let's, let's fix this and be like oh, I can't make mistakes and it's easy to fix.
Speaker 2:So then when, like life moment comes up, you're like, yeah, let's fail, let's try something. Because that's one thing I love about painting is it's I mean, it's constant conflict resolution, yes, and it requires action, like. One thing I've thought a lot about recently is how decisiveness is a superpower, because we're all so in our heads we overthink everything. We have so much data. I mean I can talk myself in or out of anything if I give myself enough time. I agree With painting. It's like I can't just sit here and think about it. I have to make marks, I have to color this canvas Right, and so the more you're like, oh cool, like I can be decisive and know what I'm doing and realize sometimes it's not always going to work, but at least I'm doing something You're so earlier about travel, and when I was in Barcelona, I went to the Picasso museum.
Speaker 1:That is one of the coolest museums I've ever been in in my life and I'm a big. I have a big problem I go to all museums.
Speaker 1:So, when I say that I really mean it. But what I loved about it and I think you really appreciate this as a painter they in a, in a. I don't know if you've ever been there, but there's in all the galleries. There's especially for his more recent works. There's a bunch of paintings and it's all of his attempts to figure out what he was trying to figure out.
Speaker 1:And he would work on huge canvases and just have like a stick figure of a child, like a head, a nose, you know, and that was his work for that day and it gave me so much confidence. I'm like, holy cow, this is Picasso, you. And it gave me so much confidence. I'm like, holy cow, this is Picasso, you know. I mean that maybe wouldn't be. You know, if I did that, I would be like, well, I had a rough day, you know, I only made a stick figure, but like he was so brilliant he knew that he needed to figure that out before he could do the next thing.
Speaker 1:And the other cool thing about it there are many beautiful paintings where he he almost realized his, his masterpiece, and that in whatever that painting was going to be. But there would be a couple of paintings that came really close and even though, you know, I don't think anybody has to be a an art expert, you could just know which one was the one that was the finished product, even though other ones were so close. So there's there. There is a deep understanding in us about art, and I do think it resonates back to our childhood and so, tapping into that, no wonder it's so joyful, right, it's like your time to color, it's your time to play.
Speaker 2:When you look back at the human existence, at some point all these black screens that we stare at disappear, all of these things that we've created disappear and it just comes down to, I mean, the hieroglyphics we see on walls and all of the like, the again, like the artifacts that you see in a museum like this is what they did. They built to try to explain themselves, to understand their world, to understand, like, to bring their community together. Yeah, and so the again the more that we can create, the the more we're more grounded ourselves, because we weren't, we didn't come from the oceans as reptiles to evolve into what we are. To just put out a marketing report at the end of the month to show how everything went, which not saying it's all bad but we need to lean into that more.
Speaker 1:I agree, and human beings are fascinating, but they're also very complex, right? So it's like a way of unpacking yourself a little bit when you get creative, because even if you don't fully understand everything, you at least maybe understand one aspect that you didn't before. Yeah, that can be huge, totally.
Speaker 2:Heaven forbid. We make our lives a little bit better by learning more about ourselves and how we like to enjoy it better, crazy, but I want to hear about the museum and the plans that we have.
Speaker 2:So it sounds like you've brought on a lot of great corporate sponsors that have helped not only just increase the inclusive. Inclusive, I almost said exclusivity. We've got to make this thing as exclusive as possible. Incre said exclusivity. We've got to make this thing as exclusive as possible. Increase the inclusivity, bring in more people. But tell me about, like these upcoming exhibits, things that you've been working on and some of these sponsors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's been very exciting. I like the, I like the uniqueness of the exhibits we're bringing in. So the dinosaur exhibit was huge because we were able to bring in hands-on learning for kids. You know, actually holding like authentic.
Speaker 1:The Utah Raptor that we have was created by Robert Gaston, who's one of the paleontologists that founded it, and we were talking about Smiley City earlier, actually randomly bumped into somebody who used to work in a museum. That actually knew him also and it's like again, you know, it's just complete, completely interesting. But long story short, so we had a first round where, when we first built it, we had a man named Joe DeBalco who is pretty big in a paleontology society and he had been collecting since he was five years old and that's how I found him and my dream was to have real fossils integrated into this exhibit and I didn't know if that was possible. A lot of children's museums can't make that happen and his dream was to one day put his fossils in a museum. So when we met it was like, oh my gosh, this is meant to happen. And I got to know his whole family and they're totally lovely.
Speaker 1:And then, sadly, about a year and a half ago, joe passed away and it was really hard because he had given this beautiful collection. He was like our best, most prominent, beloved volunteer because he would work with the kids and you know he would ask, he would sit in the in the exhibit on Saturdays and just show the kids fossils and talk to them about it and he just really loved his. You know what he did and and bringing that to children and making it, making them curious and, um, and then he passed away and it was really hard. You know we we really mourned that loss as a museum and also just him as a person, beautiful human being. But I got to know his, his widow, susie, and she was so kind. She gave us additional fossils after after his passing, um, and so what we did was we did a really nice tribute to him and we added some new new things like a Terradon and, um, some new fossils and minerals that were on display and we had a tribute to him last year. So if you have been there but you haven't been back, there's some really cool new stuff to see and touch.
Speaker 1:Um. And then we just added the train exhibit, which is outrageous. It's 3000 square feet of terrain, 1200 square feet a track. Um, there's a uh, real Thomas the tank engine kid is oh, come on, yeah, I'm singing. I'm singing to the choir, as they say so. But, um, it's really cool because there's like this nightfall experience. It happens real fast, but it's like the sun comes up, the sun goes down and it gets real dark and pretty. Then all the streetlights come on and the little lights on the cars and stuff and it's magical.
Speaker 1:I mean honestly, and you know, there's something like nostalgic about trains and just kind of like romantic. I don't know like everybody falls in love with it. And then every time I go up there and I mean obviously I work there, so I go all the time, but I always see some other new little vignette or something I didn't notice. And there's like these little rock climber guys on the way out. They're like my absolute favorite. So I don't know it's really easy to get lost and fall in love with the exhibit and the work and the artistry that's gone into it. And we were so lucky and we had a couple that reached out to us on Instagram, if you can believe that, and they said, hey, we got a model train, do you want it? We're picturing like a box, and then they send us pictures and they're like no, you would have to have it shipped. It turns out the the train itself is worth two and a half million dollars and to ship it and build it was like another million wow and they covered everything.
Speaker 1:They brought in their own train experts to lay it out, and build it and paint it, and you know and and take care of it.
Speaker 2:So we're we're really, really fortunate on that love that Like there's so many passionate people across the the journey. That's like I mean. He doesn't have to like the Raptor guy. He doesn't have to sit there every Saturday and explain things. He can do whatever he wants to, but I know he's passionate and it's like that each one teach one mentality. Yeah, Like. Let me tell you about the first time I dug one of these up and the kids like what do you mean?
Speaker 1:He's like well, let me tell you.
Speaker 2:And then there's people like they could sell trains, they could do whatever, but be like no, I actually do want kids to feel the joy of this, Like I felt once upon a time.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. You're so right about that. That's one of the fun things about being in the space is that you're right. You meet these passionate people that just really care about their particular area and they want to share it. And it's like, how is that so? And then our one that we're opening um this weekend. Um, it was, as we mentioned, um a season. We're, we have a um a truck and we have an amazing um museum fabricator. This is kind of our behind the scenes at a children's museum. He's incredible. He used to work at hell theater. He's an artist. He does stained glass. He's just, he can weld. He does everything really nice mild manner guy. Um, anyway, he, he made this truck like. He welded it in our shop in the museum and it's a seven by 14 child-sized tractor trailer. But that's a pretty big truck, yeah, especially to be like, give me a month, I'll figure this out.
Speaker 1:I got this, yeah, and so he yeah, he made it and it's beautiful. And there's a lot of you know, cause and effect, a lot of buttons and switches and fun things. And then we have this really cool sorting um, the sorting uh thing that you can do in the back where, like you're actually like in a in a stock room and you're matching you know, for kids they love it matching color and looking at the different attributes of the vegetables and deciding where they go, and it's just, it's just going to be so much fun. So we opened that this Saturday, which I'm excited about.
Speaker 2:That's exciting. I got to go find one of my nieces and nephews. Please, I don't want to get looked at too weird, come with me.
Speaker 1:I always say this, and I'm actually not joking we actually won't let an adult in by themselves, so you actually need a child.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, so, and then down the pike, not too far down the pike, uta has sponsored an exhibit and we're actually going to Matt's at it again. He's going to build a bus for the kids to play on, and we have a brilliant designer. He's a consultant for us, his name is Norm Judd and he's worked in museum spaces and his work is impeccable and he's such a joy to work for. So he has it all laid out and now Matt just has to build it. And then after that we're opening Intermountain Healthcare Exhibit and that's going to be like what a lot of science museums have, where they have the big bubbles that kids can play with parents and kids. That's like a crowd pleaser. And then there's this projection mapping kind of dance studio where, like, the floor and the wall will like mirror their movements with music and the concept behind that exhibit, which I'm very excited about.
Speaker 1:Intermountain Healthcare has been a long-term supporter of the Children's Museum, but they wanted to get away from a more literal interpretation. They used to have like an emergency room that the kids really thought was cool and everything, but their new branding is this dudes, where they're looking at the emotional wellbeing of children, and so the exhibit is all about, you know, trying to create that engagement with their emotions and playfulness and also being able to identify how they're feeling. So there's also going to be this really cool maze where kids and parents can work together and children can determine how they're feeling that day and mimic, like their parents, expressions through these mirrors and these windows and put different lights on themselves. So they can, you know, think about like what if I'm angry Is that red, you know start to start to be more cognizant of how they feel and then also talk about it. And um, and it's just been an amazing partnership. We worked with one of their child psychologists to come up with some of the concepts and I'm just so impressed with how our teams have just worked together to create this really unique experience. And we will we will be working on that after UTA.
Speaker 1:So that's, that's already on the pipeline and that's so many great things back to back, to back, I know, right, and this is all like on the third floor, so if you haven't been up there, you need to go upstairs. A lot of people don't get off the first floor because the kids are having so much fun. But, and then the, the big, the biggie that we're still fundraising for and we we have. We have reached quite a bit of our goal, but we're actually going to put in the largest children's rooftop garden in the country on our rooftop, yeah, and it's going to have a? Um a big greenhouse, so it'd be year round for the kids and we're going to teach all about, you know, food and plants and um pollinators and there's going to be a water feature. It's going to be really beautiful and soothing for kids and families, but they're also going to learn a lot. And then at night we're going to turn it into a great rental space and we're going to get that earned revenue.
Speaker 1:So we can keep helping all these kids. It's like, what a spy hop did there you go, there you go, yeah, and it's going to be beautifully lit and there's going to be a water feature, and so you can rent it out for weddings and banquets and all kinds of fun things, so at night. So it's like it's a, it's a, it's a win-win. So, yeah, so that'll be our, our last project, and then the entire museum will be renovated. So we're going to have to start circling back through, I guess, and find some refresh for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, kathleen, I always ask every guest two questions before we end. Number one if you could have someone on the small Lake city podcast and hear more about their story, what they're up to. Who do you want to hear from?
Speaker 1:Wow, that's a great question. I got to think about that one. You know somebody that I know, that I'm I know very well professionally has been a really big and early supporter of our museum. But I would be curious to see him on the on the podcast, because he's done so much for his community And's so quiet about it is Jeff Miller from Mark Miller Subaru. He has helped so many organizations and he just does it with this just really gentle spirit and is just there for the community and I think he would be a really interesting guest, Totally and like I don't know if it's the same, because I haven't gotten to know communities quite like this in other places, but like the automotive carhip community in utah is a very big one.
Speaker 2:It is, I mean, every name, from, I mean, larry h miller to the strongs, to the dally, to like I can go down the list, yeah, and, but the one that I feel like is the most interactive with the community cares gives back is to the brew yeah, I agree, I.
Speaker 1:I mean, I've been very impressed. He helps so many organizations and he's just so generous and yet just so nonchalant about it. You know what I mean? Just not looking for the fanfare, so he might not be willing to talk about all he does, but he would be an interesting guest.
Speaker 2:I've cracked a couple nuts before. I'm sure you have. I'm sure you were the amount of people that's like.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is going to be good, or I don't know if I'm going to like this and by the end they're like all right, fine, I had a good time. Yeah, you kind of make it fun.
Speaker 2:I hope so. Yeah, you do Imagine coming in so excited and then leaving just like I don't like this, this isn't fun. And then, lastly, if best place to find information, yeah, check us out at discoverygatewayorg. Cool, yeah, awesome. So go check it out. If you're like me and you remember the old Children's Museum on Beck Street and now you have your own kids that you want to go have a shared experience with, get into that childlike state of play, go check it out. And if you want to loan me your child so I can go, I won't say no.
Speaker 1:Your child, so I can go. I wouldn't, I won't say no but no, kathy, it's been.
Speaker 2:It's been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on. I'm excited to see the full done museum.
Speaker 1:I'm taking my niece and nephew and we're gonna have a day with it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me Thank you.
