S1, E83: The Relationship Recovery - Kierstyn & Tiffany

Imagine meeting your work friend in the office one day, bonding over your shared divorce experiences, and deciding to start a business together. That's exactly what happened with Tiffany and Kierstyn, founders of Relationship Recovery, who transformed their personal pain into a mission that now helps people worldwide navigate the complex terrain of relationship trauma.

What began as a small Instagram page with quote cards has evolved into an international company offering coaching, courses, and community to those experiencing divorce and relationship difficulties. Their approach is refreshingly honest – they've learned that charging for services actually helps clients take their healing journey more seriously, showing up with commitment rather than simply seeking quick fixes.

Throughout our conversation, Tiffany and Kierstyn shatter common relationship myths perpetuated by rom-coms and social expectations. "Love's not enough," they emphasize, explaining how healthy relationships require multiple connection points beyond just romantic feelings. They dive deep into why we repeat damaging relationship patterns, how we often mourn "what we thought a relationship would be" rather than the actual person, and why the journey back to yourself is the true path to healing.

While discussing Salt Lake City's unique relationship landscape – influenced by religious expectations and early marriage norms – they reveal that relationship struggles share surprising similarities across different cultures and communities. Whether dealing with a narcissistic partner, rebuilding self-trust after betrayal, or learning to date authentically, the fundamental work remains reconnecting with your authentic self.

For anyone navigating relationship trauma, considering divorce, or simply wanting to understand their patterns better, this episode offers practical wisdom and genuine hope. As Tiffany and Kierstyn share, watching someone reclaim their power and confidence after relationship trauma is "the most rewarding part" of their work – a transformation that's possible for anyone willing to embark on the journey of self-discovery. 

Discovery Call with The Relationship Recovery

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https://www.therelationshiprecovery.com/coaching

Should I Stay or Should I Go Course:

https://www.therelationshiprecovery.com/stayorgo

Website: 

www.therelationshiprecovery.com

Instagram: 

www.instagram.com/therelationshiprecovery

TikTok:

https://www.tiktok.com/@therelationshiprecovery

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Please be sure to like, review, follow, subscribe and share the podcast with your friends and family! See you next time 

Chapters

• 2:23 Episode Introduction
• 10:27 Birth of Relationship Recovery
• 19:13 Social Media Strategy vs. Real Business
• 27:57 The Unique Challenges of Divorce in Utah
• 37:47 Why Love Alone Isn't Enough
• 45:52 Finding Yourself After Relationship Trauma
• 57:38 Building Authentic Relationships
• 1:17:57 Closing Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:37

We are Small Lake City, like you, you know, like your name. There's a little plug for you, by the way. No, I'm just kidding. I love when I can use the name but Small Lake City.

Speaker 2: 1:46

And the more we sat with it. We're like gosh, let's just not do that. Let's jump in and let's help people that are getting a divorce.

Speaker 1: 1:54

Our Instagram grew so quickly.

Speaker 2: 1:57

This isn't like really typical.

Speaker 1: 2:00

When you see somebody come out of their trauma, it's so rewarding. Love's not enough. And the next piece is you need to find out why you were there.

Speaker 2: 2:09

Healing and growth is not a destination. It's a journey.

Speaker 3: 2:13

What is up everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City Podcast. I'm your host, eric Nielsen, and have you ever talked with a work buddy about getting the hell out of there and starting your own business instead? Well, I know two people that did and started their own amazing relationship consultancy. This week's guests are Tiffany and Kirsten, the founders of Relationship Recovery. Now their consulting is about people, especially in a hard time of life finding themselves right before, during and after a divorce, but also there's a lot of takeaways for a lot of relationships in general and how to improve a lot of that.

Speaker 3: 2:50

I talk a lot about my own personal divorce, the process I went through and how people finding themselves in similar situations can approach it in the best way possible. I really love talking with them and I know that I'm not the only one that's going to enjoy this topic. So check it out, enjoy the conversation with me, kirsten and Tiffany, and I will see you on the other side. Enjoy. But yeah, I mean like kind of what you guys were talking about, I mean two very different people, which makes I mean especially a podcast that much better, because last thing you want to do is have two same people talking about the same things, agreeing on everything Right, yeah, no different.

Speaker 3: 3:27

No different opinions, or and then you look at Frankie and Jess too. It's like, oh, you two are very different people.

Speaker 1: 3:33

They're very different and their audience is very interesting, like they are devout, like we have we got like five clients in the last little bit that came from just that podcast. But they trust them beyond like I. I I would love to see what I heart lost with them switching oh yeah I I wish I could see the stat, because it's so interesting yeah uh, talk to a couple people kind of about it, but I tried to listen to the new host.

Speaker 1: 4:00

John and Chantel beat them out. That's how the drama drama came out and we kind of know them yeah.

Speaker 2: 4:06

But I listened to him and it's just so not the same. It's like no, and I don't even listen to the radio anymore, because I listened to the podcast, or you know a podcast Like I've had.

Speaker 3: 4:24

I've had my car for three years now and I haven't turned on the radio once. Like someone's asked, like I got in someone's car and they turn on the radio. I'm like, hey, psychopath are you? Are you in a mermaid? We solved this, uh, but good for you. Like yeah, like sure, if what I do, whatever you want to, but, but it is fun to see how things have changed. And like one thing I love talking to people about who have podcasts is, like the reason you have a podcast. Sure, there's, I mean, my sister's boyfriend who runs um, oh, what's the new name for it? It used to be O2 Utah and now it is something I'll put in later. Um, but it's all about, I mean, improving air quality in our environment in Utah.

Speaker 3: 4:56

And he had a podcast. But he's like the reason I did that is to get access to like thought experts, to talk to them and get their attention not necessarily to grow anything, but just be like, hey, you want to come share your opinions in a mic and then, like Stuart Anderson, who is the quote captain of me, dwell a the bike club. Like the reason they have a podcast is. So if someone's like, oh, I kind of want to join, I cool, like, yeah, go see what people did it, go see who's here and go from there. So, and with you guys, it's like, yeah, like you have a business that you run of relationship, consulting and helping people transition and to a different time of life, which we'll talk about. I'm actually really excited to talk about that, but it's so it's always interesting for me to hear people like strategically, like what are you doing and why? And it's all over the place.

Speaker 1: 5:37

Yeah, I love that. I think for us, the reason we started the Relationship Recovery Podcast was solely because our Instagram grew so quickly through just quote cards and then reels came out right and stories.

Speaker 3: 5:54

We sound really old, We've been doing this, the social media changed from the pictures.

Speaker 2: 6:01

Remember the swipe up for the 10Kk that was a big deal guys.

Speaker 1: 6:04

Actually. I, I think I got robbed, I think it should still be. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, um, but the it was just like 10 second moments and that's not enough to kind of explain and you know relationship trauma so in depth. And so we wanted to have more of a conversation and it was so funny. We just kept getting clients and they're like, oh, you do this and you talk about that, and they just didn't realize how deep it was. They were just kind of coming in because, like, what's a narcissist? And like now it's like Instagram has a and tick tock, it's like that's all there is, it's just narcissism, but I mean, but it kind of started there and then we wanted to talk a lot.

Speaker 1: 6:39

It's so much deeper than that and it's about you and there was just such a conversation to be had and it just made it so tiffany and I could have deeper conversations right well, and I think it helps people to get to know you too, because they don't get to know you on your social media or through a 15 second video at all and that's kind of what we were finding is people just didn't know who we were and so, from a bit like from a business standpoint, it opens up these doors where, especially if you're selling like a service or you are the product I don't know how you I honestly am a huge advocate for podcasts and it's you know, videos, huge youtube like. There's a reason why those long-form media sources work for businesses.

Speaker 3: 7:16

But I think, especially lately, a lot of our clientele comes from the podcast totally because Because, like there's and I love it We've reached this time in the world where there's obviously an appetite for short form content. I mean, tiktok is what it is, instagram is what it is, youtube shorts are what they are, but at the same time, on like opposite end of the pendulum swing, like, people love long form content in the particular reasons that it's there and it's, I mean especially in one topic I hate to talk about, but it's the most relevant is like with politics, right. I mean, like before you had these debates, people would dodge questions, they would do whatever, and then now it's like, all right, we're here for two hours to talk and if you're not going to answer something, then I can just say that doesn't like, no, that doesn't work, and so I'd like that kind of there's a, there's a place for both, and especially I mean to your point, kirsten that there's that's also my sister's name, great name um but it's.

Speaker 3: 8:06

It really puts another light on the strategic lens of how do you use these things, because I mean, most business owners have some sort of social media exposure but it's like, how much is that utilized? How much are you actually actively trying? Does it just outsources some consultancy? That just puts it on a content calendar, schedules it and goes, and so it's fun to see the people who adapt with the times and really like lean into the things as they come and we actually learned a great lesson about social media in the last little bit.

Speaker 1: 8:31

So, like over the last 10 years, we spent a lot of time becoming popular on mostly instagram. In fact, popular enough on instagram that tiktok approached us. We weren't trying to go over there. They approached us and asked us to be a learn on TikTok creator, and so that's the only reason we added TikTok and we started talking about YouTube, just because we had a consultant company that really pushed us there for a little bit. And anyways, we spent all this time building Instagram and then about three months ago, we were like we're kind of burnt out on it and we didn't like that. We kept feeling like we have to post a certain thing. So we decided to take a step back and it was one of the healthiest things. We left the podcast alone and our clientele and the rest of our business fine, but we I think it was really healthy for us to go. This doesn't burn down if we're not a slave to short term, especially instagram yeah and I love instagram.

Speaker 1: 9:24

Like they don't. Like it's been great. It's where most of our businesses come. Like I said, other than the podcast, it, the it drives to it and it's an important piece, but it was, it's.

Speaker 2: 9:36

It's been a good lesson for us to take that break yeah, because it's just so easy to get burned out day after day posting. You know, doing reels it's a lot of work to create that content.

Speaker 1: 9:47

And we manage it ourselves, like we're not sending it out, like we put it's one of us, always and you know that writes everything and creates all those reels and all that content, and it's like for two seconds, and then, when something fails, it's like oh my, oh, my, gosh me. You just rejected me as a human, you're always hustling.

Speaker 3: 10:05

I don't want to take this personally, but why can we talk about this do?

Speaker 1: 10:09

you want to hop on and so, anyways, we just found that it was really healthy for us to look at it that way and to kind of take the step back and be like, oh no it, our business exists, our boat floats without it. Because there's kind of this illusion yeah, and we did, and we realized we're like we did a really good job at building an influence, which is great, but at the end of the day, that's not what our business is.

Speaker 1: 10:30

There's so much more, much deeper than that and we, and that's why we've really enjoyed the podcast actually, because it is deeper yeah, because I.

Speaker 3: 10:38

So there's a point where I mean I was laid off from my last job and because, like I mean, I was had my job, which is obviously I like money and having a lifestyle that I want to have, but then I have this like podcast that's driving so much more of my like curiosity and interest. It was hard for me to just be like I don't look at it and I don't don't pay.

Speaker 1: 10:54

No, no, focus over here and next thing.

Speaker 3: 10:56

I'm like all right, fine, but it was fun when I did get laid off. I never thought I'd say that before, but because, again, like everything that was in my head of like oh, if I had more time, I do this, like, ah, like that would be good, but just don't have the bandwidth. And all of a sudden it's like all right, buckle up, buttercup. Like you said you were going to do this if you had time. And so relationship, because I see people I mean get quote addicted, unquote, spend way too much time and it's just like this mental health spiral totally. But for me it's been like this additional creative outlet where, like my brain just kind of thinks in memes and social media a lot of the time and so just like I'll be like, laying there, like oh, wait, hold on, and the next thing I know I'm like and schedule, like put this in drafts. We'll see how this goes tomorrow. But and so it's been fun to kind of just like this like little toy to play with, almost, and where I like don't follow.

Speaker 3: 11:48

And it's like nice because I got my personal and my the podcast account and it's funny because, like I always send things to each other because that's like my saved.

Speaker 1: 11:55

Oh, I do that too. It's always scenes on my stuff about here you go I'm like this is what is this?

Speaker 3: 12:02

she can only somewhere my brain's going, but because of, like the podcast account, I don't send too many. It's like I'm sending memes to friends on like my podcast account, like it is heavily influenced by whatever I'm sending back and forth. So one week it'll be like here's a cap, cut the hack. Or. And then it'll be like here's some relationship advice and be like do you want a six-pack abs before summer? And I'm just like, all right, pick a lane. So it's been really fun.

Speaker 3: 12:26

But anyway, I could talk about social media strategy content, whatever. But I'm excited to have you guys on here because there's a couple topics of Salt Lake that I think are very unique and nuanced, that if you're from here, I think you get it from a surface level and if you're not from here, you kind of see it from afar and it's like you see the, you see the outcomes. We don't really understand like what's actually going on. Um, and I'm excited to talk about it for a lot of reasons, but, um, obviously, uh, oh, my gosh, I just forgot Kirsten and Tiffany from relationship recovery. I said that, right, right.

Speaker 1: 12:58

Yeah. Okay, sometimes I don't trust myself whenever I have to remember like key moments we're really big on the the Well it's like the same thing when people are like.

Speaker 3: 13:07

I went to Nordstrom's the other day, I was like there's no S on there, it's Nordstrom.

Speaker 1: 13:12

You're adding too much, yeah, but anyway, that's a whole nother topic.

Speaker 3: 13:16

But I'm excited to talk to you guys today for that. But I, before we get started, I'd love to hear kind of what led up to you two I mean tag teaming, building this business and kind of go into more of the nuance of what's happening in Salt Lake. So maybe start with Tiffany and, yeah, a little little background and how you met up with Kirsten.

Speaker 2: 13:32

Okay, so a little background. There is uh, kirsten and I used to work at a place together. I think we can name the place.

Speaker 1: 13:39

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2: 13:40

It's called it's Systemic Formulas.

Speaker 1: 13:42

They're a Utah company too. They're awesome.

Speaker 2: 13:45

And I had just gone through a divorce when I got hired there. And then you got hired maybe a year later I think I had been there about a year and it was just this place that was really safe for me to be. I had a lot of support there. I felt safe physically, mentally, emotionally. The way they supported was really, really great.

Speaker 2: 14:05

And then Kirsten got there about a year later and one day she came into my office and she said you know, I know you're going through a divorce and she's like I'm just starting to go through a divorce, and so we really just were a really good support for each other. I was just a tiny bit ahead, so I had some different tools that I was able to pass on to her. So we, you know, chatted for a while that way, but what she really came to me for was she said let's start an event in a marketing company, because she was in marketing and I was in events and it made sense. And so we're like, yes, let's do that. And then one day, when we're successful, we should do something that helps women that are getting divorced or people that are getting divorced.

Speaker 2: 15:21

And the more we sat with it we're like, gosh, let's just not do that. Let's jump in and let's help people that are getting divorced, because, you know, I wish I would have had the tools that we give to people now back then. Right it's. I mean, I just there weren't a lot of tools and a lot of availability for, like support groups, and Instagram was new and all that kind of stuff, so there weren't accounts like ours. So we, we jumped in and we held an event at the Salt Lake Hardware building, yeah, and we had about 100 people there and Colin Karchner he's since passed away, but he was our emcee and it was phenomenal and it started from there and it started from our Instagram page.

Speaker 1: 16:09

But that's how we got together and, ironically, we do a lot of this event business and then we were going to have this non-profit and you know, because I didn't really think like we could do something that would help people and make money and we had to kind of work through our own.

Speaker 1: 16:40

You know, like what money means and how it has energy, and you know we would give stuff away at first because we were like, oh, we just want to help people, help people. But it was so funny we robbed them in a way, in my opinion, because they didn't show up for themselves Like money has sacrificed and so making it a business, we actually helped more people because they showed up, they took it seriously, like it was a sacrifice to do their work. It's just kind of like when you have like a trainer in the gym, you show up better when you have somebody that's holding you accountable. And so we just noticed that and it just we started to have a better relationship with you know, money and paying for people, like people paying us. And then we, you know, we added these certifications and now we've added even more and it's really evolved and grown into a really cool thing. But yeah, it all started because I went, you know, I went to an event and it was infusion soft at the time. Um, I guess it's.

Speaker 3: 17:31

I think it's keep or something I don't know anyways we went to and there were all these.

Speaker 1: 17:35

There was like thousands of small businesses and every time I talked to somebody they were doing something like random and cool. Yeah, and I came back and I told Tiff, I'm like let's just do the relationship recovery, like let's like forget this like event business that everybody has. Let's just like, let's just go for it. And it took off. I remember we got our first client. We were sitting in like Best Buy's parking lot on our 21st we're like okay, awesome. You know it was crazy. It just kind of built from there.

Speaker 2: 18:05

Yeah, and we used to only coach together. That's how we started. We thought that was unique because it would give somebody my perspective and her perspective. And we don't do that anymore. We coach separately. But we just grew enough that it didn't make a whole lot of sense to do that and we became better coaches. We didn't need to lean on each other so much.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Now I think sometimes it's bad of her to get I know, because it's almost like, like. Why are both of us?

Speaker 3: 18:30

on there like there's one that somebody does, and anyways.

Speaker 1: 18:32

And then we started doing courses and we wanted to help more people. We tried an app. We there's so many different avenues that we've we've gone down and it's, you know, owning a small business, it's trial and error and burned money and made money, and you know all the things I have multiple stories for all of those.

Speaker 3: 18:50

But I actually like love your process of how you came to do it, because it reminds me a lot of mine. Like I was, I mean working in corporate america. I was like, well, I don't think this is what we want to be doing forever, like this doesn't give me the energy I want it to. But then I just had this itch of like something I needed to be doing and it was always oh, do I want? Do I want to start a business? Tried a couple things, talked to a couple people, I was like, nah, this isn't it.

Speaker 3: 19:13

And then I was listening to a lot of interview podcasts and I was like, well, this is fun, because my job at the time was interviewing, doing market research, focus groups, in-depth interviews, professionally, and so I'm like I know how to talk to people, I know how to go into a conversation, wanting to get something out and do it. But then I'm also a social person who loves to connect with people. So I was like, let's do. Like what if I did it? And if I did, what would I do? And I'm like, well, there's so much going on in Salt Lake Nobody really knows what's going on.

Speaker 3: 19:37

If I did what would like? What would the outline look like? What would the guest list look like? Until it's it's, it's nice, because I don't. I always get weirded out when someone's like all right, so I'm trying to start a podcast, but I don't know what I'm gonna do or what motivates me. I'm like, okay, like, maybe, like you know, like let's flip it a little bit. But uh, I think it's a common one and, especially as you two look at what you were trying to accomplish, I feel like it's great to see that you have this experience professionally of marketing and events that you're both like listen, I don't want to be here anymore. We're besties, we're in this together and we're out of here together, right?

Speaker 1: 20:23

And we loved. It was just time. It was like and some of it naturally happened anyways, and some of it naturally happened anyways Like I wanted to be with my kids more. That was a huge component why I left that company at the time. And then things kind of naturally continued to build and the relationship recovery kind of started to build on the background. There was even like a moment where I was like I don't know if I want to. I actually we kind of paused and I was like I don't know if this is what I want to do, and like I was that it just kept the mission, was it's meant to be. I don't know how to explain it. Like I said, we wanted to.

Speaker 1: 20:54

We we've tried to burn it down by accident and not on purpose, and it never does. And I just think it's such a needed piece and it's what we're called to do. And when we kind of surrendered to that of what we felt called to do, it works out and you know some of it. We've learned a lot of patience. Like we kind of have that like hustle culture a little bit at first, because that's what everybody was talking about, Like we were listening to Gary Vee. We were listening to you know all these other people and we really liked, like Brendan Burchard and you know that was it. Like you were like hustling and then everybody burned out.

Speaker 3: 21:31

And also COVID was everybody burned out and well, and then also, I think, some of their stuff. Oh yeah, covid. Covid was a huge part of our business too.

Speaker 1: 21:35

Oh yeah, everybody got divorced oh yeah, you block yourself with people. You find out who they are real quick, you know, like and we're not just talking like abuse, but like a lot of people were like, oh, this doesn't work, yeah, we cannot do this like and it's true, I, I think sometimes people really we partner with like domestic, like fadv um here in utah and some others, and we love them and we're all about domestic. You know domestic violence awareness and we deal with a lot of emotional abuse and things like that. But getting divorced in general is traumatic and other relationships are traumatic, like we have people that come in for friendships, family relationships, work like all sorts of relationships. There's, I mean, one of the number one things that, as a human being, we ever create is relationships. So when it doesn't go well or you start having these toxic trends because the way you do one thing is the way you do everything, there's so many different, I mean anyways.

Speaker 2: 22:28

So we have lots of different conversations in different ways, right, and I think you know, really, at the end of the day, it's rebuilding that relationship with yourself and that's the most important piece. So everybody gets an opportunity to be in some sort of relationship.

Speaker 1: 22:41

Yep, and we always lead back there, Like the relationship recovery isn't about the other person, but that's what you're focused on, because that's all you can see, because typically you've lost yourself in that other person. And so when they're looking for help, they're like what do I do about this? What do I do about this person? What do I? What does this mean? Who are they Like? Do they have a diagnosis? Do they not have a diagnosis? Like and you're trying to figure it out, like why things fell off. Once we can kind of center people there, then we know we go to what actually you can't control oh yeah, and you.

Speaker 3: 23:09

No one can get to know you better than the extent that you know yourself. And so much of relationships again, whether it be romantic, family, professional, friend, I mean they all come back to the same like principles of like. I mean communication, showing up trust, respect, um and like and so like. If you can have these skills to learn, it's like okay, cool, like whether it's your spouse or your shitty boss or whoever it is, like it's the same same sort of tools.

Speaker 3: 23:36

I mean my different, different goals and outcomes and expectations but at the end of the day, a lot of it can be applied in so many different directions. Yeah, and especially I mean like divorce in general. Like I love what you're talking about, how it's such a I mean it's. I mean I think it's. There's a quote somewhere where it's like the only thing harder than like divorce is like a child death or something.

Speaker 1: 23:55

I'm gonna look that one up. I think they've done some. They did some polls and things like that.

Speaker 2: 24:00

I mean cause you think about it in your grieving, in your mourning alive. That's even a whole different. You know, ball game over there is that that person's still alive. So you have to deal with that aspect of it too, right?

Speaker 1: 24:14

so yeah, it's hard and you mourn what you thought it was going to be yes it's not actually typically who they are. It's you mourn, your expectation of what the relationship was going to be, and that's really hard to let go of. And then you create like, if you're co-parenting, for example, like we'll see people create this. Okay, this is, we didn't, the marriage didn't work out, but co-parenting don't work out we still have to do.

Speaker 1: 24:35

We're in this, yeah, we're gonna romanticize what co-parenting is gonna look like, and then they have to let go of that, and there's just so many things where you just you really have to learn how to accept what you can control and who they are, and accept who they are too and what it is and, I think, bringing it back to you know that, that fantasy of what you thought it was supposed to be.

Speaker 2: 24:55

You know, sometimes when we're in a relationship with somebody that has really toxic traits or has some sort of some form of narcissism, sometimes you get sold what that relationship was supposed to be and so it's really hard to unravel from that and get you know, get back to yourself and and realize that it was supposed to be, and so it's really hard to unravel from that and get you know, get back to yourself and realize that it was never going to be that in the first place. And you know, to keep that ruminating about that more in check, yeah.

Speaker 3: 25:22

Especially with I like what you thought it was going to be, because I mean it wasn't what it was or else it wouldn't be what it is.

Speaker 3: 25:28

Yeah, and because, like, even with me, like I mean I've it wasn't what it was or else it wouldn't be what it is. And because, like, even with me, like I mean if anyone's been listening to the podcast long enough, you can probably allude that I'm divorced, but I've never like come out and said it. And two things on that before we go further. Number one I love that, your guys' relationship in supporting people with divorce.

Speaker 3: 25:44

Because I remember, because when someone's like there's been a lot of times cause I'm divorced for two and a half, three years now and it's interesting, like people come up to me like, oh, by the way, I'm going through a divorce, I'm like, hey, congratulations, no good marriage ends in divorce, right, and then also, which that's? I'm not gonna say it works a hundred percent of the time, but it's like 95% of the time everyone's like thank you, um, and. But then it's fun because you'll see these people, and it's like, oh, you don't even know what's about to hit you in the face Like I know you're excited to be out of it, but there's a road.

Speaker 3: 26:14

It's going to get dark for a minute, but you'll be back and you'll be back with who you were actually supposed to be, not who you were in that relationship.

Speaker 1: 26:32

No-transcript it is. That's one of those things. It's kind of it's. It's kind of like it's a little club. You really you don't understand it unless you've gone through it. It's really hard for people and it's your heart breaks for people that are kind of alone in it and how you're kind of talking about a utah nuance, like we when we started the relationship recovery. Mind you, we're now an international company. We thought we were starting a utah company because we were like utah so unique and there's such this.

Speaker 1: 27:05

There's the culture aspects around it and how divorce is treated here and a lot of that. I mean I got divorced at 22 in utah and you know most people are like on their third kid no, I'm just kidding, but I mean like. But there it was. It was a lot of shame around being divorced and it's so like with the religion here. There was also a component of that that weighed in and like there's so many different pieces that plays in divorce, especially in utah. But also it was kind of funny the more that we've gone international.

Speaker 1: 27:42

I actually we're not that different. In some ways too, there's some funky nuances. But like I'll talk to somebody in canada like I had a client in canada. She was devout jewish, very similar like if you told me she was in salt lake and switched the religion, I would have. It would have been the same now. And it's not just religion. Like we have people on the new, like in new york city where it's more about like status and things like that, and it sounds very similar. So it's just all these different extra components. I I think they weigh in. It was very interesting. It was like we are small Lake city, like you, you know, like your name. There's a little plug for you, by the way. No, I'm just kidding. I love when I can use the name but small Lake city. But we're also not that different in some ways too, I think. Sometimes we're like oh, we're the bubble, and you know.

Speaker 2: 28:37

So, whatever that social social structure is, it's still a social structure. A lot of those feelings are the same, yeah, I do think, though, you know I got divorced when I was 42, and I do think that religion plays an aspect in it, because I think I was kind of held into my marriage a lot longer than I would have been had I not had kind of the pressure of you don't break your family up. You know you need to stay together, and a lot of you know pressure like that from religious leaders, and so, um, I do think it's a little unique in that way yeah, and I actually had the opposite.

Speaker 1: 28:58

So at the time I was pretty, you know, I was very. I went to the bishop and I did the whole thing and went through it that way and I kind of I was lucky because I had just really awesome people that supported and he was like he's like you know and I know there's a lot of pressure about like staying together and that does create its own unique culture piece. I I totally can see what you're talking about, but it was funny. He was kind of like oh, thank goodness that that's what you're, he's like he's like I, I 100 support.

Speaker 1: 29:30

That kind of gave me a lot of support that way.

Speaker 2: 29:32

So it's it is interesting but yeah, I just, I just wasn't quite that lucky and had a, a leader that you know said you know, I think you, you need to stay and work it out, and I just like cool, I'm gonna go back to banging my head against the wall again.

Speaker 3: 29:47

Thanks for the quick break.

Speaker 1: 29:48

Right, right so and yeah, and there's just so many things where they it is funny, yeah, yeah, that's a whole other ball game because, like in my family.

Speaker 3: 29:57

So my mom's divorce, my sister's divorce, and I was number three, and so it's nice to like have seen it sure, and be like okay, like I generally see how this goes, especially with my sister, because like she wasn't her complete self when she was married and then she got divorced. And all of a sudden, like my sister that, because, like she wasn't her complete self when she was married and then she got divorced and all of a sudden, like my sister that I remember, started to come back because there wasn't this just I mean burden of a relationship on it. Well, not just a relationship, but like being in a bad relationship attacks you more than you know and you don't even know until you're out of it. Oh, yeah, sure, and I like what you were talking about, kirsten, about kind of like there's a lot of us that go through I mean hard times, breakups, divorces, where it's like them, them, them external, external. But it's also like hey, like you got yourself into this situation, like you signed on the line, you brought them in.

Speaker 3: 30:39

And I mean one book I always recommend to anybody going through a divorce or even long-term breakup is Conscious, uncoupling, because it lays out all of these steps of like, hey, listen, like here's how to process this, so this doesn't happen.

Speaker 3: 30:51

Here's how you learn, here's how you look into this, here's how you make this not a defining moment for you but a launch pad towards who you're going to be.

Speaker 3: 30:57

And because it does become this inflection point that I'm sure both of you can think of great examples on both sides where there's people that just get so trapped in it and can't like escape that, but then on the other side there's people it's like I didn't even know I could be this person, but yet yet here I am and I'm grateful with my divorce, because like we had both left the church before, so there wasn't that complicating aspect to it, but also like our divorce was so amicable because when I was in the van I was with her, and so there's like six months in a van traveling the country that there are things that we just had kind of pushed under the it, and when you're in that 10 by 15 foot box, you know you start to not be able to hide things anymore and he essentially just got to the point where, like hey, listen, different values, different beliefs in life, like, have a good.

Speaker 3: 31:41

Like, we didn't need attorneys, we just signed on the line you take yours, I take mine. Co-parent dogs, which is a fun, unique aspect of things.

Speaker 2: 31:48

Oh, that's interesting, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:49

It's a. I always love seeing people's reactions because it's either like oh or like oh.

Speaker 2: 31:54

Okay, you know what I love that you're talking about this, though, because this isn't, like, really typical. We don't see a whole lot of like people that can do it like this, and I think that's really neat that you were able to take the concept and the ideas in that book and really apply them. Um, because I think a lot of times we get in this trap of it has to, there has to be an affair, or there has to be it's like I call it, like the big big four, big five, yeah, yeah, you're just like waiting, like hit me please.

Speaker 3: 32:22

This makes it so easy I waited.

Speaker 1: 32:24

I mean, I totally waited. I was like oh, there's my get out of, like I'm I'm not even mad that you did that. You know, I'm out like that. That was my get out of jail free card, you know. So it bet.

Speaker 2: 32:36

But if you're not happy, there's no reason that you need to stay in a relationship that makes you so unhappy. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 32:44

And that was my thing. It's like you look at life like we got one shot at this and I mean mean depending on your religious belief, but I mean I guess, whatever religious belief we believe, we're going to be here for this, yeah. And again, to like to just be there for the sake of being there and expecting people to change someone else to show up, like it just doesn't quite work like that. And I remember there was a point like, again, we're like working through things, trying to have I mean, we'd had a I mean marriage therapist like three years and which was great, like I always recommend that to everybody before anything. It's bad.

Speaker 1: 33:14

Proactive. People do it when they're already, like the, the relationship's dead. Yeah, and that's when people bring it, it's like no if you're already dead on the table you don, I can't do anything, sorry.

Speaker 3: 33:34

And so, yeah, I mean, obviously get ahead of it.

Speaker 3: 33:35

But then also like, yeah, that's what I was going to say, because, like, even in that moment where I'm like, hey, I know this isn't working, I know we just keep banging our head against the walls or trying to do things and it's not, and like I could see that path, I could see the path of it being like all right, I guess we're just going to keep doing this until one of us goes into a ridiculous amount of debt, goes into drugs or alcohol, cheats on someone, hits someone or some other thing I can't think of, thing I can't think of, and so it's.

Speaker 3: 34:01

It's like you don't have to wait until that moment happens, and who knows how long it could take until that happens. And also, like it's always interesting because, like, the thing I hear from a lot of people is like, well, I'm staying together for the kids, I'm staying together for the kids, the kids, which is like the kids are always super important, but kids are smart and they will put it together better than you ever will. Like they will know that the relationship is. I mean, when my parents got divorced I was nine or ten. I was like, oh like their mom and dad are breaking up.

Speaker 1: 34:23

I'm like, oh nice like, yeah, yeah, I got the get out of jail card from one of the top ones, because at the time that's kind of what I thought you had to have. Yeah, but I left for my son, like I, I was in. There was a very pivotal moment and you know, there was kind of a vault. It was pretty volatile at the time and I remember looking in the rearview mirror and seeing his car seat and he and I was like this isn't it? I'm not going to teach him that this is what love is.

Speaker 1: 34:53

And from then on it was just kind of like quickly unraveled right then. And then I, like I said the next day somebody knew something. And they told me and I was like fantastic, so here's my case, you know, and you don't have to wait for the case, but I'm so grateful that I did that for him. And then I was able to do it for myself, because I, by self esteem at that point, was so low, I wasn't valuing myself, because I think that's also why sometimes people don't leave either is they've totally self abandoned in the relationship, that they're lost. And so then they're like well, I'm trapped, I'm here, and so I think there's so many different components to it and everybody's story's kind of different.

Speaker 2: 35:28

Everybody's different. You know you've got stories, you know like what you're describing of your own story. You've got people that you know sometimes can't leave for financial reasons. They're kind of trapped because of that. Or you know, sometimes it's just really scary to leave some of those situations. But you know there's resources and there's ways to ways to get out. If that's, you know your case. But yeah, everybody's story is different.

Speaker 1: 35:53

And I think we stay in the familiar. Like my marriage was like four and a half years relationship with like six, and people would probably downplay it because it started when I was a teen. But I also had some pretty toxic teenage relationships before that. And then, if you get real deep into it, there's generational trauma and it goes on and on and on and on. But like from paper it's like my parents were married and they're still married. They've been married for 50 years. So people like, oh, that's that she doesn't have the generational pieces.

Speaker 1: 36:21

But like you go a generation back, you go into like so many different pieces and we end up in the familiar. There's an epigenetic component, there's what you know. There's like there's so many different components to why we stay in a relationship too and how you got there. You will always choose the familiar, always. So you have to work with that piece and that's what we do too, like we identify. Why are you comfortable in this? Why are you repeating these same trends? Because you look at somebody's relationship. Typically their friends look like that, their bosses look like that.

Speaker 3: 36:52

They're you know, they're not comfortable with a healthy relationship in any relationship sense I mean especially when, again, like with your example, kirsten, that it's so early in life and like you're like, well, I mean, and even in my marriage, yeah, but also just in dating in general, like one taboo. I like always get weirded out by people is like cause I'll ask, like if I'm dating someone, or like trying to get know someone, like tell me about your past relationships, what were those like? And they're like most people don't want to know about this. They get like uncomfortable or jealous. I'm like listen, if I'm hiring someone for a job.

Speaker 3: 37:21

I want to know what you learn from the other jobs and if you're a good employee or if you're a bad employee, that's trying to find another place to go, and so I think there's that part of it. But then I mean the devil you know or the devil you don't it will always keep us wherever we are, even if I mean relationship work, no matter that that might be um, and so it's. It's interesting to see how people get there, because, like one thing I've been thinking a lot about recently is because, again, we, like people, try to be in the situation, while evaluating the situation and figuring out if this is the right thing for them, when in reality it's really hard to do that all in the moment because you have to be part of it, while like trying to like distance yourself from it and like I mean in my experience with people, it's like usually when there's a doubt or like they kind of know, it's like you're just deferring a decision and like it's time like to make one. But then it's interesting when you can get away from it physically, mentally, emotionally, depending on kind of the situation that you're in. It's amazing the amount of like your brain and your life and just like energy in general that you get back, because you don't realize how much you just sit there and think about, like, okay, I have to go home, and then I have to do this and hopefully we don't have to talk about this again. And I'm so sick, I'm tired from work, and you just don't realize how much of like your brain is just spent thinking about this. And then all of a sudden I like, oh, maybe we should start our own business, maybe we should start a podcast, maybe we should do do that garden we've always talked about. Maybe it is time to catch up with my friends.

Speaker 3: 38:48

And there's, like this potential of you that's there, and it's not even just saying like your partner's taking away from that potential, but because you're so much more worried and thinking about so many other things, your uh, aptitude to doing great things only goes up when you leave it, and so it's fun to see people cause again. You're like bad relationship. You're feeling about here, you get out of it. You're like I'm out, and then you're like, oh, what does life look like now? I used to think I knew exactly what my life looked like, and now I have no idea and I've no nothing's promised me anymore, and then you go down and then all of a sudden you get like back up and sore and I love when I get to see people like hit their stride, they're doing their thing and like it takes definitely takes work and intentionality to get there, but when they do I don't have to tell you both you're probably like listen, it's the best part of my job is.

Speaker 1: 39:32

I get to see people. It is. It really is like when you see somebody come out of their trauma it's so rewarding, like, and it's so traumatic, like, and when they finally can see their power and who they are and they're not so lost in the shame because, like people come in and like the main thing they say is I don't trust myself, I feel stuck, I don't know who I am I don't know if I'm right I don't, you know.

Speaker 1: 39:56

Nope, yeah, I'm broken. Nobody's gonna want me like. It's just such a shame cycle and it's. It's amazing to watch when somebody can find their worth and they reconnect to themselves and they know who they are and even, like you said, like even if they don't have all the answers and they get a takeoff, they. It's such a catalyst. I watch it be people's catalyst all the time.

Speaker 2: 40:22

And I feel like you really see them like just reclaim themselves and reclaim their power and all the things that they'd lost within that relationship and it and they get it back. And I mean people say all the time I'll see pictures of myself, you know, from a few years back, you know when I was in that relationship, and I don't even look like the same person anymore.

Speaker 3: 40:38

I look like a totally different person in that relationship and I don't even look like the same person anymore. I look like a totally different person, because I do love that confidence piece, because I mean people especially say you can agree or disagree with me and I'll take it back. But like I feel like it's so much more like on the female side of feeling so defeated and so because there's a lot more social aspects to it, I think, for women than men maybe not, I'm going to you can disagree with me, you can tell me I'm done.

Speaker 1: 41:09

I think it's more socially acceptable for women to feel that way. Yes, I think men, I work, I, we both. We have male clients, but I would say that there's a lot of men that don't get help because it's not socially acceptable for them to feel that way.

Speaker 1: 41:18

There's, it's way more acceptable for women and I don't think we create enough space for men to have that and it. I love working with the men that I work with because they haven't had anyone make that safe space for them to be, you know, to have that emotionality yeah, and they feel, seen and heard and all the things that they don't feel because society tells them to, to be tough and and there's nuances to it, like like I a component I see a lot is like they feel used for their stability, like financial peace.

Speaker 1: 41:54

They're like oh, my value only comes through what I can provide and but they're like but I need the emotional support and I need to feel seen and I I need to know. Like it's very interesting, but I run into that a lot, um with my male clients. Another one is like if they were cheating on. It's very interesting too. Like that it's not socially acceptable for a man to be like have low self-esteem about his physical looks sometimes.

Speaker 1: 42:21

I feel like, and so I'll have these discussions like well, what do I bring? Like, why wouldn't they just go out and cheat on me again? Or you know, it's so interesting to see some of the different components.

Speaker 2: 42:33

Very similar, but there is something for a male client that's a little different right and I know, I mean I know that it's becoming more acceptable because we've since had we started out and we were just solely female and we were so pink, we were very pink. We actually had a male client tell us that we were way too pink it's like listen yeah he's like you got to get a little different color scheme going there, but, um, yeah it's.

Speaker 3: 42:59

It's nice to see that starting to change a little bit and for us to be able to help men too, and I can't imagine of like again, let's say, I'm thrown into a I mean quote typical like divorce situation and I'm a man who hasn't gone through therapy, hasn't gone through that process, and then just be hit like with a baseball bat with all of this. And now you have to think about all all this self-worth and projections and this anxiety and this voice inside of your head, without the tools to do it. And like, thankfully, like I was someone in my youth my mom prioritized therapy for and then, when I was going through my faith crisis in my late 20s, like that was a big therapy moment for me. And even when I kicked off, like like what I mean me and my ex did was like I mean like reassess the, the marriage, like, what? Like? Like, uh, pulse, check what's going on. Like my coverage, my old therapist had stopped so I get a new therapist. Shout out hayley.

Speaker 3: 43:48

And it was like hey, not to like dump this on you, but like here you go, you know and, but it was, it was nice to have her, and like, and especially when we got to the point like, let's see, probably like a year and a half after I first met with her, which was like a month before, I actually like physically separated from my ex-wife, and like we just like, essentially just became us talking. She's like eric, these are really expensive conversations for you. Uh, you're like text me when you need to and we can set up a time, but like you're good, yeah, and like. One thing I want to come back to that you alluded to is this like social stigma of divorce, because I remember when I was first getting divorced, like oh my god, no one's gonna look at me serious, it's always gonna be. So why are you divorced? What's wrong with you? Are you broken, blah, blah.

Speaker 3: 44:27

But ironically, I have never I don't know if it's ironic, but I've never had a conversation on a date or talking to someone where it's like I am divorced and it's like what? Like hold on pause, let's go back, talk, talk about this, if anything. It's like, oh, yeah, me too. Anyway, like moving on, cause then, like you know that, like I mean just like any subpopulation of any group of people, there's going to be good and bad eggs.

Speaker 3: 44:47

And, like, with a lot of people that I've talked to are divorced, I'm like, oh, nevermind, like there's a reason you guys got divorced and I'm like, 60% sure it like that and so it's nice to have again like this culture and like this I mean geography, where there are a lot of people that go through a lot of divorce, and especially with, I mean, the religious component and social component of it, where and I'm curious to get your guys' take on this, because I think you would agree, but still want to hear your take on it but I mean, when you have so many people, you have this society where people get married so young because of, I mean, the LDS church, but then also it pulls in people from everywhere else because it's so socially bound that people in general just get married younger, but then all of a sudden we have I mean 2019, 2020, and all of a sudden people start leaving the church a lot.

Speaker 1: 45:33

Right.

Speaker 3: 45:33

And all of a sudden people are like whoa hold on. One of the key criteria for us getting married and starting this relationship was this thing.

Speaker 3: 45:39

That's not there anymore yeah and now I'm figuring out who I actually am and what I want, without all these parameters in place, and actually I think I'm good now, like we're good and so it's. It's a. I'll champion people for that. Because, again, when you go from, I mean the perception of, I mean the lds faith of we're gonna be together forever, our families are forever, everything is in this. And all of a sudden you have to reel it in and be like, okay, now everything's finite and we only have so much time to deal with the rest of our lives and like I don't know if this is the one I want to do it with.

Speaker 1: 46:09

Yeah, I think too, with that comes this component of people don't do enough work, like outside, of just having that like the other religious component that you just talked about. Like once we went, we went through the temple, we're sealed forever, so now everything's going to work out because we checked the boxes, kind of thing, and then there's no work on the relationship at all and then they don't have any other foundation outside of that. So when you rip somebody's foundation like that, I don't care what it is, whether it's religion or anything like that, care what it is, whether it's religion or anything like that, anything else, and there's nothing else in that relationship holding it together and like, and I think there's components where you're talking about like they figure out. Oh well, I was just kind of checking the box and you were part of the box and we actually don't have anything in common outside of the church. So see, ya, that's one version of it, but I also think they just don't have a relationship like they don't have a foundation out of it. Yeah, and like my husband and I we were married in the church, we took time out, we kind of are. You know, we've been in different places and we have very different outlooks about it now and um, but we did a lot of work on our relationship. I make one of the things I pride myself on more than anything else is my marriage with my husband now, because I make one of the things I pride myself on more than anything else is my marriage with my husband now, because I make it a priority and we have a totally.

Speaker 1: 47:27

There's a foundation there besides just you know, religious aspects or other things, and there's nothing and I'm not. And if you're listening and you're part of that religion, I'm not trying to like downplay. If that's important to you, great good for you. But there has to be more than that. There has to be willingness and awareness of things and you're not always going to be perfect and just because there's this blessing of that, you're going to be together forever, that everything's going to work out perfectly, and people aren't. I mean you're working with two imperfect people. There is no such thing as this perfect relationship and I think people kind of go into it that way. And how you were talking about youth man, you don't know what life is, so your frontal lobe is not even closed and even then I don't know about you. But I still don't know everything.

Speaker 3: 48:13

If I had to sit in a room with my 21-year-old self, we would instantly want to fight each other.

Speaker 1: 48:17

We would instantly want to fight each other, we would hate each other.

Speaker 1: 48:19

Yes, you just grow so much and you have to grow with that partner too. Yes, because when you choose a life partner you have to grow together. If you grow too far apart, it causes you know. I remember a therapist friends of ours. He actually said he goes. I wish I could have people sign when they start therapy that the number one thing that they're going to risk is the partnership that they have or the relationships they have, because when you grow, that person started in that relationship with you in this like not healthier growing place and that person might not like that you're changing because that's not who they signed up for, and so it's always like a rubber band effect. It might break or you might. They might shoot up to meet you, but it's, it's tough, it's when you choose to work on yourself. There's a lot of components there and that's why that foundation has to be there, outside of other things, in my opinion. Yeah, that's, and that's my opinion.

Speaker 3: 49:16

Yeah, I mean, I mean it's a I'd say it's a universal principle in general. I mean even thinking about to set the context for that. So I believe in any relationship. It's really three relationships it's my relationship with myself, it's my partner's relationship with themselves and our relationship together. All of those three things have to be respected in their own form. But then also, when it comes back to bringing everything back together, and it's like one thing I believe in is like you never put all of your eggs in one basket, no matter what it is in life. And so the man we're just gonna talk about all of my fun, little traumatic experiences in life today.

Speaker 3: 49:47

So I remember when I lived in Seattle, when I was just out of school, graduated two years prior, got laid off from a job, and that job was my life. It took my foundation from under me. I didn't have anything else because I sacrificed everything else I enjoyed in my life and I was a wreck. Fast forward to 2020, I get laid off again, and that point I was like there's other things in my life. I had a community, I had hobbies, I had some other things I was doing. So I was like, oh okay, and like, also, it's COVID. So I can't like I know why it happened, but like it sucked. And there's definitely a point where I'm like, oh, can I do this? Am I worth it? Blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 3: 50:27

But then this most recent time I remember, cause I found out like the week before that I was essentially going to get laid off and I was like, okay, like make sense, and like kind of was already looking, but I get laid off. I'm like, okay, cool, I'm so all my energy into that and like was able to approach so much more from this clear mental headspace because a my foundation wasn't cut out from under me and so it's like the only thing I had in life wasn't gone anymore, but like one of like the eight octopus legs of my life got cut off. So I mean that's not going to change my life. And then, because I was in it, like because I had put the foundation in place and done the work, I was confident in myself that I knew I'm like, hey, if I do the right things, it's going to work out, which puts me in a good headspace to have success. And then it eventually kind of all did how I wanted it to.

Speaker 3: 51:06

And so in a similar way, I would hypothesize and think, like with a relationship, like if you and your significant other only have one thing together that's holding everything there. I mean, I imagine I don't know, know, I've been thinking about the movie hercules recently, the animated, so I mean it's like when the uh, the witches I can't even think of their names but they're like holding the thread and they just snip and the person dies and they go to hell, like her hades, um, uh, similarly like if you have one string and it gets cut, then there's nothing connecting there anymore.

Speaker 3: 51:36

But if there's multiple things, then what a great strength to have, I mean, especially if it's. I mean it can be so many things too. It can be a hobby, it can be other friend groups, it can be a community. It can be so many things yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 51:46

And love's not enough. Having that one like thing isn't enough. That string like hercules, that's not enough and you have to have so many different components. And that's why, like, we have a course called should I stay or should should I go? And a piece to that is like do you have the same goals? Do you have, you know, the same values? Are you guys in line in so many different ways? We don't just go oh, do you love them?

Speaker 3: 52:09

You do. Okay, I didn't want to meet with you anymore. So, yeah, yeah, just go, just go love and like on that note, actually because I of like the millennial generation and why we have like do you love him, is it all about love? Love is all you need Is because we were all raised with rom-coms in the early 2000s.

Speaker 1: 52:26

Oh yeah, I did a podcast about this One Tree Hill on its own totally screwed me up.

Speaker 3: 52:31

Yeah, because I was. So I think it was the year I got divorced. I just went through because I was raised by two sisters and a single mom during like my teenage years, which was in the early 2000s, so all I watched was rom-coms. I mean, like just married 10 things. I hate about you how to lose a guy in 10 days, oh so many, so many good ones.

Speaker 3: 52:54

Well, it's the same pattern, because I have ADHD and I can always recognize patterns, but it would be. Here's this powerful person and they are given this weird moment where they get to start this relationship. That's going against all odds, until they find out that they actually like each other. Oh no, something happens, but one person does one huge gesture and everything gets forgotten about. And so what do we do in our lives today? It's like I need you to show more, babe. What do you want me to do to show up? Do you want me to go out with your friends? Do you want me to talk to your family more? I'll do it. It's like no, I just want you to listen to me and tell me that you love me.

Speaker 3: 53:24

It's like I don't need this big thing, I just need some sort of a lot about that yeah, no, I 100, like, I always.

Speaker 1: 53:33

I'm always like, see, I'm like, if there was the bad boy, you were supposed to be with the bad boy and no matter what they did, they would become good though, like you just accept all the bad stuff and you know you need to be popular and all of your value comes through whoever you're with and you know, they just push you to romanticize everything. Oh 100 love bombing. Actually, that's where all love bombers come from.

Speaker 3: 53:55

Yep, you just said it comes from rom-coms yeah, I've learned a lot about relationships post-divorce because, like I mean because again, like, if it also depends on how long you were divorced like what you show up as again in your dating self is really just like that person from before and your like expectation of it. Yeah, and so, like I was the person who'd always be like, oh good first day, like good morning, how's it? How's life? Like I was the person who would always be like, oh good first day, like good morning, how's it? How's life? Like just texting all the time and then being like, oh, what are you up to this week? Oh, you're busy. That you're not busy that day? I'm not. I can move some things around, I can do this. And I remember one of my friends. She's like Hey're going to spend all the time together and do this Like it's actually not a good thing.

Speaker 3: 54:27

It's actually kind of like toxic traits in a lot of ways. But the more that you can have these like kind of slow burns and be like I can see you once a week, maybe twice a week, maybe get like a midday coffee or a lunch and like ease into it, is so much better in my opinion, oh yeah.

Speaker 3: 54:50

Um, but I mean, I guess, some quick advice for people. I mean, if someone's going through a hard time or going through a divorce, what kind of advice are part of your initial guidance or advice you give to these people going through a hard time?

Speaker 2: 55:03

You want me to go? Yeah, okay, as I knock everything over, I think you know, if you're going through a hard time and it's just like Kirsten was talking about, we have that course. Should I stay or should I go? Sometimes it's really good to reflect on some things and to really like take inventory of your relationship Because, you know, sometimes it can be like, if you look at it, it can be probably worked on, sometimes it can't, sometimes maybe you don't want to work on it, you know. But taking that inventory and really evaluating your relationship and what you want in life and what your goals are, and really taking a look at you know what you want On one hand, there's that On the other hand, you know I just have to speak to it because we do deal with a lot of like abusive relationships- yeah relationships that looks a little different.

Speaker 2: 55:52

That sometimes requires some outside help, some safety planning, those kinds of things, to look at things, to know whether you can get out of those relationships safely. But I tell people to start there. Make your list, write it down, don't just let it spin in your head. You got to anchor it to the paper. So once it's anchored to the paper then you can really get a good idea of what your relationship looks like as a whole and what you really want.

Speaker 1: 56:17

And if you're actually divorced, it's over. You've made the decision. The first thing I would recommend doing is make sure you have good energy. So what I mean by that is like I'm not like just saying crystals and things. I'm saying like how much are you pouring into yourself?

Speaker 1: 56:33

Because what happens is people often are extremely depleted at that point, so like they're not taking care of themselves, they've totally self abandoned because they're so consumed and going through the divorce and you know making that big decision, and so then they're, they just kind of stay on that trend of being completely depleted. You know either overworking over scrolling, over drinking, you know whatever they numb, right. And so, getting to a place where you're, you know doing some of the basic self care, like you don't need to overdo it, doesn't need to be a Pinterest version of it, but good self care, right, generalized self care. And then the next piece is you need to find out why you were there. Like where did it come from? People just look at it and go, well, I'm out now and I'm just like not going to marry the same person. But then they do and they're like, how did I end up with the same person?

Speaker 3: 57:20

or dating the same person and all of their friends are like.

Speaker 1: 57:22

Yep, it's like written on the wall. They don't even look alike. No, I'm just kidding, but there's a part of it. You have to to find why that was comfortable for you and why you were attracted to it. And I'm not saying you're responsible for what they did, but it's kind of like a dance, like we use this analogy all the time. You learn those once you've had a partner for so long. Those are the dance moves you know. So you tend to attract the same person doing the same thing and because you're going to follow that same component. So why is that familiar to you? And you need to rewire it. And you need to look at how you're reacting, like what triggers you. You need to look at the trauma itself, because there is trauma there and it doesn't always.

Speaker 1: 58:02

I know people get mad that we overuse the word trauma. I don't, we might overuse it, but I also think we don't use it enough. I know that sounds really odd, but I don't think we use it properly and like it can't. It's amazing Like there's some people that come in there Like I thought for sure this was going to be like the pivotal thing. Like I had this client who was like it was when my brother threw grasshoppers on me and my mom didn't support me or back me, and I know that seems so small, but that's where it stemmed from.

Speaker 1: 58:30

And then it built upon because typically the other thing is these relationships are byproducts and you know, people don't always love that either, because they don't, you know. Then you have to open up this can of worms with your family and you have to, and and then that brings a lot of shame too and sometimes they're like well, that's my support system. So if I start looking at my parents and they spiral right. But it's not always about your. Your parents can be human unless there's like blatant abuse, right, that's a very different. Like tiffany said, like abuse is a very different can. But like they're human, they're not going to do a perfect job and there could be like epigenetic in general pieces, like there's so much to open up. You have to heal that part of you.

Speaker 1: 59:07

You have to figure out why you ended up in that relationship yeah so you don't repeat and you know you don't self-abandon and you can figure that out. That's how you become healthier. So that's where I would start. We have a book list too, like, if you're just like starting to like poke around, it's the free, it's just 10 books to read and we have that on linked on our instagram and people download that all the time and just kind of start there and you know it's a lot of things to learn that you don't even know until you know.

Speaker 3: 59:34

And like because, again, like you've been operating in this world that you again, you're probably the master of that.

Speaker 3: 59:40

But like, if nothing changes, nothing changes. And if you don't understand your internal processes, if you're not educating yourself, then you're just going to again perpetuate what you know. Yeah, and like, one thing I always tell the people of, whether they're, I mean, in a bad relationship or they're trying to understand a relationship. I'm like, all right, take away all words, only actions. What's happening in this relationship? Is he just coming home from work and sitting on the couch and sitting on his phone for 12 hours, even though he says he's going to do the world and it's never once promised anything like something to be thought of that? And then, secondly, the thing that I think of is because I've seen so many people again like on the topic of repeating the things that you're used to and have done in the past, especially in relationships. One of the best things I did when I first found myself out of that relationship and shout out homegirl Haley. Again she's like write your list of what you need in life after this, what you've learned from yourself and what that looks like. Because, like, one thing I've seen a lot of people do is there's usually, like there's can be, this one thing that they just wish that they were whether it was a mentally healthy person or would sit next to him in church or well, I mean whatever that could be and they will go hyper fixate on that and they will go find it, but that they don't realize all of these other baggage, it doesn't come with it. Or they're like, oh wait, I found myself in a from like the frying pan to the frying pan to the plate. Um, and then, thirdly, like the dating. Dating in itself is one of the most personal things you can ever do, because whenever you find yourself in an issue, find yourself in a pattern, find yourself in a habit, it's your own behaviors, patterns, your own uh lures and bait that you're putting out. And so many of my times where I've been frustrated with dating, I'm like hold on, what do I need to learn? What am I doing wrong? What are we doing this? And like we'll have to take some tough medicine and swallow some big pills. But then it all comes back.

Speaker 3: 1:01:21

And then, but again, like what we talked about is like knowing yourself and knowing where you are, who you are, what you, what you stand for, your date it's this whole like dagger straight to the heart. It's like yeah, yeah, like that's okay, like not everyone's for me and I'm not for everyone, and but if you haven't done the work of who you are, what you want and what you don't want, then like it doesn't matter, like it's fun when I mean have a good one and like so many people are like wait what? Like Whoa, like you're not, like mad at me, like no, like if you're not going to force you to be here, like that's like the worst thing you could ever do is like trying to convince someone that that, that they should be there, and like it's been this interesting cycle recently. With that, I mean it's because of the like the first time I've ever been able to do that and I've talked about it before. But there's this like flywheel that's happened in my life over this time, where I mean the best thing you can ever be is who you are, which takes time to learn, but the more that you can do that, the better you become at it, because you're already good at it and we get better at the things that we're good at and then when you put that out, then the right opportunities show up and then it just creates this engine of like who you actually are and what you actually need and everything starts to work out.

Speaker 3: 1:02:41

And as I've embraced that part of my life and then come back in with dating, it's been interesting to be like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:02:47

Like if you see, like I know who I am, I, I know like I know the values I have, I know my weaknesses, that I have and I could understand if you don't want this, but it's like I understand that there's a lot of people that do want this and so I know how I'm going to be respected and wanted and I want someone to want me. I don't want to have to try to sell myself every single day to someone that doesn't want this or has their own insecurities and battles and things that they need to put forward and Cause like the more specific I get and the more particular I am, it's harder to find, but it does put me in a good place where it's like dating isn't this grind anymore. It's like oh, yeah, we can go and meet each other, have a good time and hang out and be like oh, you know what Actually, like it was so nice to meet you. I hope you were the best.

Speaker 2: 1:03:24

Let me know if I can help you, but you're not my, like, romantic partner. Like, what do I need to learn? I love that. I love that. I think that is like so insightful for you to be able to like ask yourself you know, what am I learning from this? What do I need to do differently in my own body and my own self? So that was cool.

Speaker 1: 1:03:45

And I love that you and you started the podcast with this and you know, hopefully it makes the cut, but it's one of my favorite quotes is that you can only meet somebody as deep as they've met themselves. You'll never meet them past that, and so when you do develop that deep relationship with yourself and you're authentic spending time knowing you will find you'll find who you're supposed to be with and not just romantically, but just in life, like the more you know you, the more you're like and your circle might get smaller but at the same time like you'll have way more authentic relationships.

Speaker 1: 1:04:14

Because when you're authentic it creates that authenticity and you're safer, versus like shut down, pretending oh my gosh, it's you know and you're. You're so consumed in that perception you get lost in it. And I love what you said about dating, because I think a lot of people have the mindset that dating has to be a grind and it's the worst. And because of the dating apps, everything's ruined now. And and it's the worst, and because of the dating apps, everything's ruined now and. And there's a component where I think people jump too soon. Sometimes they don't give it because it's too easy yeah, oh, I jumped, it's way too soon yeah, but it's too easy to go back.

Speaker 1: 1:04:44

It's. It's just like they're like oh, this is kind of hard, and then they go and like swipe again and try again and they don't invest the time just to try to make it work with somebody. They're like oh, you have one imperfection, because it's such a balance and it's such a wild west. Dating changed so quickly and I still don't think people like we haven't caught up to it. We can't handle Instagram and like TikTok and you know our brains really can't handle that. And now we've applied that same thing to dating.

Speaker 2: 1:05:08

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:05:08

And it's crazy. So I think so. I think that's why so many people suffer through it. That's like a whole, whole nother can of worms.

Speaker 3: 1:05:14

I think I've said that a couple times. We can go. So many different words, so many containers, so many insects, um, but I want to go back to a topic you're talking about like phrases that are used too much with trauma, but I think there's one also that, um. It's one of my favorite books that I read post-divorce was the eight rules of love with jay shetty, and so he I mean monk in India, learned from London, went to India to become a monk and then has become who he is, podcasts, everything with there. But he put something in a perspective that I like a lot on the topic of getting caught in these cycles of of who you are and getting to know yourself.

Speaker 3: 1:05:47

Because, like when we think of karma in Western society, we think of bad things happen to bad people, good things happen to good people and keep doing it. But in the actual context of karma, it's the cycles we find ourselves in. If we keep doing the same things, we keep having the same outcomes, and part of the goal of life from a Hindu perspective is to learn from all of those. So we don't keep having the same outcomes to take us to our dharma, which is our purpose here in being alive, which could be, I mean, tagging up with your work, bestie.

Speaker 3: 1:06:14

And next thing, you know you're on a podcast and or you could be putting hundreds of hours of yourself talking to other people on YouTube over the course of a year and a half. But everybody has their own purpose. And like again when I was like going back kind of to the topic of like, relationship with yourself, relationship, your partner's relationship with them and yours each of you should have your own growth towards this Dharma with them and yours, each of you should have your own growth towards this dharma. Like you can help, support someone with it, you can be there for them, but you can't do it for them. And so to realize that you're both of these, these individuals trying to do that, and also realizing, like, if you're banging your head against the wall, you don't like something.

Speaker 1: 1:06:45

Like look inside there's, there's something that you need to learn to grow, and you can either learn it and keep growing or you can again go back to just banging your head against the wall yeah, and I think too, when you're saying, like you mentioned getting to know your, like we were talking about kind of getting to know yourself, and you have to do that in order to figure out your dharma, right, like you have to be connected, um, to who you are, what you are, what you want and what patterns you're doing and those type things, and you know you could also call that your, and I think a lot of people are.

Speaker 1: 1:07:15

They've no idea what's going on. I think a lot of us live in autopilot and that's you have to connect to that subconscious self to figure out those patterns and those cycles you're talking about. And if you can't identify what those things are like, when you get triggered and you kick on autopilot or you know you're numbing or you know you don't want to deal with those types of things, or how you're reacting, it's because those reactions are actually protecting. You know the trauma underneath or the pain or whatever it is, and if you, if you're more worried, or that subconscious part feels so threatened, you'll, it'll take over.

Speaker 1: 1:07:52

It's running the show oh yeah so until your conscious and your subconscious can align, you're going to keep repeating those patterns, and that's that's specifically what we do is help you align with those things and listen for those patterns and identify them with you so that you can move forward the me versus I, yes, um, but I also like on the topic of dating apps, like what?

Speaker 3: 1:08:12

so I, uh, I, uh I think I was talking about this with Jennifer Yo from Solon SLC, but she, uh, like. One thing I believe in is like I, there's a lot of people who are just like you know what. All right, let's fire up these apps every day. We're just going to swipe until I can't swipe anymore and I'm just going to sit on my couch and wait for someone to message me about taking me out. Gonna fall helplessly in love and like, but like, if there's one thing I've learned a lot recently, it's nothing good happens at home. Like, if you're just gonna stay home all day, every day, nothing, nothing's gonna come. Like no one's gonna go knock on your door.

Speaker 3: 1:08:43

Be like, hey, are you looking to date someone to fix this exact profile? Are you looking for this job? Are you looking for this friend group? Like, get out of your house. Like salt lakes and like in utah in general are amazing places for community, but you have to do a little work to find it, and so the more that you can get out and meet people in a natural environment. I mean, that's the way people want to be met. I mean, I can't think of the stat off the top of my head, but a staggering amount of women and men are waiting to be approached in public and in real life and have authentic interactions. No one wants to be like.

Speaker 3: 1:09:12

Well, I swiped on an app for six months until something worked out and so the more that you can put yourself out there and let the universe do its magic, better things are going to happen that's true, yeah, and I.

Speaker 2: 1:09:22

So. I have a client who gets caught up in just being on her phone the whole day on those on the dating apps, and so I've had her put some parameters on it so she has, like, certain times of the day that she checks it, but what she has seen is because she has to fill that space, she has to go do something different, and so she's gotten out with her church and her community and, um, you know, it's been really good for her because, yeah, sitting on the apps and waiting for it to come, and this isn't great and if you're addicted to like social, that's a whole.

Speaker 1: 1:09:52

Nother dopamine hit.

Speaker 1: 1:09:54

And also you, you feel rejected. And now there's like all these different things. Like people feel like they have to be funny and they have to send you the perfect thing and they have to have the perfect profile and they spend all this time doing those type of things and they just get so lost in it and how you were talking about authenticity being in person, you're going to be way more authentic and you're going to see somebody, you're going to watch them and you can see. There's just so many different pieces to it and I love that you pointed out community here. I think, since covid, people are just socially awkwardly, weird in a lot of ways, like and I think they still are and I think we set ourselves up and I know this is like four or five years later, almost, but I think we really set ourselves up for like separation and we got comfortable there. Like I still feel sometimes I'm like I'm kind of socially awkward. I do a lot of things on zoom and I never was.

Speaker 1: 1:10:42

I was such a social butterfly person but, you get so into that and like our whole job's on zoom, like tiffany and I were when we were walking down. I'm like how long has it been since I've?

Speaker 2: 1:10:51

seen you in person because like it just.

Speaker 1: 1:10:53

But we live in that world and so I love that you're talking about get out in community, be in these places Like we were walking around, like where you record and like talking about you know, I'm like wow, like we, we miss our office because we shut that down because of COVID too.

Speaker 1: 1:11:07

And so there's such a so many different pieces to that. I think people are starting to get more into, you know, in person community, and maybe I'm a little slow because but the jobs are on zoom, like everything's on zoom. My husband goes to his office like once a week to have social interaction. So you know, I think there is something about getting out, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:11:26

And that's a good reminder, I think, for people, because we do get caught up in disisolating and staying home.

Speaker 1: 1:11:33

So yeah, and you get comfortable.

Speaker 3: 1:11:34

Yeah, I mean I've recorded I mean almost 85 episodes now and not a single story person I met has been like. And I did this without any sort of community, help, friendship, not family, whatever. Like the stories of our lives are meant to be done with people. Like we are social creatures and don't get me wrong, we have those long weeks, we have those times where you want a night in, but like when it becomes friday, saturday night, sunday, during the day, that you're all you're doing is sitting at home, like, like, what? Like take a step back, like is this helping you get to where you want to go?

Speaker 3: 1:12:06

And also like, even again on the topic of like knowing yourself and what you want, like one thing that kind of bothers me is when a lot of people look at I mean I think it's guys that mostly do it where it's like they look at women, it's like, oh, like you're only dating material. I'm like no, like you can build a community of friends. And like just cause they're not going to date them doesn't mean they don't exist anymore. And like there's so many people that I've, like I mean gone on dates and you like to go to concerts a lot. I like to go to concerts. Let's go to concerts. I'm like yeah why not?

Speaker 3: 1:12:34

And so I think just realizing of just building your community and the people that are around you, like everything will show up and like that's why I prioritize wanting to do a lot more in-person events for the podcast, because that's what I've heard from so many people. They're like I'm sick of going to the bars every weekend, I'm sick of dating apps, I'm sick of trying to make all of these things work and not having a way to do it. Making friends as an adult, meeting romantic partners as an adult, is hard and you don't want to see your co-workers more than you have to Sure. And so to provide those experiences to people where, again, like it's hard to put yourself out there, show up somewhere where they're alone with someone but like come, hang out.

Speaker 1: 1:13:09

Yeah, and I love that because, like for small business and you know, or large business, you know, whatever there when you have this type of ambition and dream and mission, you're unique in a lot of ways and a lot of people don't always understand that, because you're also stepping out of kind of the social norm and so creating those types of communities is so important in businesses. Like, not everyone's going to understand. Like there's so many people that go what do you do? Who are you? Did you go to school for that? Oh, you got certified. What does that mean? And they're so behind on.

Speaker 1: 1:13:44

Like you know, the mental health's changed so much. There's great therapists and there's crappy therapists. There's great coaches and there's great. You know, there's crappy coaches and there's great coaches and there's great. You know, there's crappy coaches and there's so many different ways things look, things are, things have changed and there's kind of this box you live in and you really have to step out and find your people and what you're passionate about. It's just like anything. So I love that you really talked about building that community and I think it's awesome that you're doing the live events for podcasts, because I think we need you need that community and in so many different ways, totally all right, and you know, if any of this resonated with you, if you're like, hey, I think that's me.

Speaker 1: 1:14:23

Or oh, divorce, like there's more to it, because I think a lot of people too, like they get divorced and then they're like, later on they're like, oh, like, and start showing up in their dating like how you were talking about dating and like how you were saying like you've, like you alluded to divorce and sometimes people don't openly talk about it.

Speaker 1: 1:14:40

If you're kind of looking for that community, I think that's also something that we offer at the relationship recovery is people find a lot of community and support and not just great tools and resources. But we're two people to actually walk through it ourselves. Plus, we have this community behind us and you know now it's millions of people all over the world and it's it's kind of crazy how how big it is when you look at it and how many people are listening. So, um, if you're looking for that, you can go to our website and just use the code podcast and you can have. You know, we'll do half off your discovery call and we can just, even if we're not for you, we can at least give you resources and tools that might be for you or put you in the right direction, so we always like to try to offer that when we do a podcast and we never let anybody walk away from those discovery calls without some really good, solid tools to you know, help them in their current situation.

Speaker 2: 1:15:31

And I think it's just important to remember that healing and growth is not a destination, it's a journey and it's just always. You always have to be working at it.

Speaker 3: 1:15:41

Exactly no, I think. Thank you and appreciate that, like it's. It's a question a lot of people have. Everybody feels so alone, but when you realize you're not alone, this is something people have done before. People know how to help you get through it. It can be your community to help you grow and get over a really hard time in life and help you find your footing so it can become the best part of your life after that. Then, yeah, no, I'm grateful for both of you, everything that you're doing. Um, yeah, no, keep rocking it, I'm excited. So if you guys could have someone on the small lake city podcast and hear more about their story and what they're up to, who would you want to hear from?

Speaker 1: 1:16:13

I would say fadv, which is fight against domestic violence yeah, they're really cool because they they help, they actually raise money to help all these different organizations and they have a current there. It's state, it's actually statewide, it's not just a fadv but um, it's dare utah and it's trying to bring more awareness around domestic violence and what it looks like, because I don't think a lot of people realize what it looks like at all. Yeah, so they're doing some really cool things.

Speaker 2: 1:16:40

Yep and Brick would be really neat to have on. You'll love her Cool.

Speaker 3: 1:16:45

No, I love bringing awareness to things, especially topics that people think they know, what they know, but they really don't know everything that they should know.

Speaker 1: 1:16:52

Yeah, and I don really don't know everything that they should know. Yeah, yeah, and I don't think a lot of people name things that happen as domestic violence. They always view it just the same way they they always it has to be a physical altercation and it looks so different than that, oh yeah and I think it's actually happening a lot in dating right now and people are not calling it what it is like.

Speaker 1: 1:17:11

We had a really deep discussion, um, with a professor at the U and just student after student coming in like not calling grape rape, not calling domestic violence, domestic violence because there's a socially acceptable piece to some of it right now and so, yeah, Well, and I think that's a lot going on yeah, that that stigma silences us, it makes us quiet, and when we're quiet, it us, it makes us quiet, and when we're quiet, it grows, you know, in silence.

Speaker 2: 1:17:37

And so I think having people share their stories and their experiences and stuff really brings it to the forefront so that you know, we can, you know, do something about it.

Speaker 3: 1:17:45

Yeah, solve a big problem that is unfortunately a part of the world we live in.

Speaker 1: 1:17:49

Yep and Utah is one of the highest and we don't talk about it enough because there is a little bit of that perfect culture and so we like to. I think a lot of people stay longer because they're worried about how it looks.

Speaker 3: 1:17:59

Yep. So and then, lastly, if people want to follow you on social or follow the podcast or get more information, where's the best place to find that?

Speaker 3: 1:18:15

You can follow us on all things social media, the relationship recovery and you can go to the relationship recoverycom to learn more about what we do and what we offer. Yeah, yeah, exactly, kirsten Tiffany. It's been amazing. Thank you so much. Everybody, go check it out. Use code podcast. Give a half off consultation because there's so much to learn. Life is worth it. Worth life is worth living, not living uptight, in the words of Jay-Z. So sometimes it's yourself getting in the way and you don't even know why it is.

Speaker 1: 1:18:38

Love it.

Speaker 3: 1:18:39

No, thanks, guys, You're awesome.