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Small Lake City
Small Talk, Big City
Join host Erik Nilsson as he interviews the entrepreneurs, creators, and builders making Salt Lake City the best place it can be. Covering topics such as business, politics, art, food, and more you will get to know the amazing people behind the scenes investing their time and money to improve the place we call home.
Follow along for more!
Small Lake City
S1, E45: Human Work Project - Charlie Warner
Our conversation also takes a nostalgic turn as we reflect on Charlie’s childhood in Salt Lake City, emphasizing the power of unstructured play and its impact on creativity. We discuss the challenges modern technology poses to today’s youth and how parents can foster nature-based learning experiences. Charlie's academic decisions, such as choosing the University of Utah over Westminster College, reveal the unique blend of outdoor adventure and high-quality education available in Utah, especially post-Pac-12.
Dive deep into the realities of growing up queer in conservative Utah as Charlie shares her struggles and triumphs in navigating identity and community. We explore the pressures of choosing the right career path in college, the value of hands-on experience, and the evolving landscape of academia. Learn how Charlie’s entrepreneurial spirit led her to found Human Work, a company that merges business strategy with personal development, empowering people to launch successful ventures. Don’t miss the exciting details about her TEDx talk and the impactful work being done through Human Work Capital in the Salt Lake community.
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You know, I grew up as a queer kid in Utah, got my MBA graduated in 2020, but then they asked me to start teaching. A good friend of mine who's a physical therapist ended up getting laid off Over the holidays. We put together a business for her and she was scared to death. That's the sort of thing that I find so much joy in, and when I mean, I just get to chills thinking about it and I witnessed him in landing in that there is no right way. It's just a matter of again quieting all the voices on the outside and saying what actually matters to me, it's like what is the work that you can't not do? I kind of randomly applied, with some encouragement from some friends, this last season, to TEDx Salt Lake City and I was accepted. The talk that I will be giving is on how to use nature to inspire better business strategies and workplaces.
Erik Nilsson:What is up everybody and welcome back to another episode of the Small Lake City Podcast. I'm your host, eric N Nilsson, and have you ever just not been that excited to go to work, feel like your work isn't fulfilling or just feel like everything you've done really hasn't been what you thought it was going to be? Odds are, you're not alone and odds are someone named Charlie Warner can help you fix that. Now, charlie is someone who grew up in Salt Lake, grew up as a queer individual, and now her job is to help people feel fulfilled in work through connecting in nature and finding their true passions and values and aligning them to that so that their work starts to become part of who they are. And she also has a speaking engagement coming up at TEDx Salt Lake this October, so we have a really great conversation. I think everybody who is part of the workforce or is at a job really can understand and relate to it. So a lot of takeaways there and, yeah, I think it's going to be a conversation that everyone will like and be able to relate to. So enjoy. I'm excited.
Erik Nilsson:This is I was just telling you, but like it's always interesting to see the people who I kind of had this like back and forth with and I'm like, okay, but like it's always interesting to see the people who I kind of have this like back and forth with and I'm like, okay, let's schedule, let's do this. Communications get mixed up. But then, as I kind of sit down and I'm like thinking about, okay, what do we talk about? What's the talk track? What do I want to take away from, I think, all the work that you're doing with human work and in all of the things that are going on in the past two years I mean especially when you hyper-focus in Salt Lake I think it's a very relevant thing to go on, because in my conversations with a lot of my friends and my peers, there's this raising sentiment of people saying, okay, well, I went to college, I got a good job, I work 40 hours plus a week.
Erik Nilsson:I don't feel like it's really doing what I was told it was going to be.
Erik Nilsson:I don't really like feel that involved personally. Like like in a perfect world you have a job where you have your values, you experience those values, but in reality that's not usually the case. Like I mean for one of my friends who works in financial transactions and making those easier. It's not like that's making the world directly a better place or helping him live his values, and so I feel like there are some people who are kind of lost in this next phase of like okay, well, I have this job and these skills, but I want to feel like I'm doing something and aligning with my values, and I know that, with a lot of your work, that you're doing is to help people feel fulfilled and help people feel um more grounded in what they're doing and especially using a lot of the things that are great around Salt Lake and getting us all involved with it. So, so, so excited to have you on the podcast I know there's so much more to you than just human work and I'm excited to hear the whole story.
Charlie Warner:Yeah Well, thanks for having me and yeah, I'm really thrilled to be here. I mean Salt Lake, I grew up here, and so it is truly small like city for me and you, you know I human work has been an expression of my work, growing up here too, of like my own experience, and so I'm excited to share that story and hopefully help people really align to meaningful and purposeful work in a way that that does fulfill in their values. And I think, to your point, you know a lot of us like coming from our parents even. You know they had a very different experience of work, and so we learned that we needed to have a certain approach to work around, you know, find a stable job and have, you know, buy the house and do all of those things.
Charlie Warner:But I think the reality of you know growing up as a millennial in Utah with the 2008 crisis, and you know just everything, one after the other for the last, you know, since I was a kid essentially, and probably since you were a kid as well you know those stabilities that we, that our parents and our grandparents maybe worked to create, just aren't the reality for us, and so what we're finding, or at least what I'm seeing is a lot of people who have a lot of, like, passion and creativity and drive, but the return on their efforts of not being able to share those things because they have a jobby job, career Um, they yeah. They're just not getting what they were promised. You know, we were promised stability if we got the career and that's just not how the world works right now. And so figuring out how people can align to work where they are expressing themselves and can share their skills and their strengths and their passions in a way that's reciprocal and sustainable, and their strengths and their passions in a way that's reciprocal and sustainable right, it's not all about just like diving into you know, I want to be an artist. It's about finding that sustainability right, and you know nothing against artists.
Charlie Warner:I work with a lot of artists and they do really amazing, incredible things. And we also have to plug into the reality of the economy and the way things work right now. And so our work at Human Work is really to help humanize the nature of work and say, whether you're in a career or starting a business or an artist, figuring out what that means to you and then essentially strategizing and creating a roadmap to support that and I think community is a big part of that and that's why I'm stoked to really talk about it here on the podcast in terms of the Utah community, because it's been meaningful for me.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, because I know this is, I mean, a home, sweet home, that's been there since the beginning. And before we kind of dive into more of the work that you're currently doing and some of the future stuff you have in store, I really want to set the stage of what Utah has been to you in the history. I mean, what part of Salt Lake or Utah did you grow up in? What did childhood look like?
Charlie Warner:Yeah, I mean my friends and I that I grew up with. I have there's three families that I grew up with in the neighborhood that I grew up in and we had the best childhood. We grew up at the base of Big Cottonwood Canyon, like within walking distance of the canyon, and, just you know, got to it was before cell phones and it was before really there was a lot of at least in my neighborhood uh need for like I don't know, our parents were pretty like open of like letting us be free range kids, and so I just remember like running around the Hills as a kid and, you know, spending time in the mountains, uh, just every day, and being able to go to the national parks and go. You know it was just incredible to be able to have access like that as a kid, um, and like I just don't think it's a thing right now, I don't think kids get to do that, and I'm really really grateful to be able to have had that experience.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, and I'm also very grateful for those experiences, cause like similarly, like I grew up in I mean such like my before I was 10 and then I moved, but it was one of my good friends His name's Matt Jensen, also goes by George, but that's a whole nother story but his dad, well, his parents' house was right, kind of like the top ish of the avenues, kind of like the foothills are, and like the top ish of the avenues, kind of like the foothills are, and like we'd go out his backyard and it was just like cause, like where there's 11th Ave, and like the cemetery and cremation place, like we would just go wander around there, go find a big stick and we'd like walking stick, we tried to build a fort at one time. Like that, that whole part, like I always get sad because I'm grateful that I got to, to have that childhood where it was just children at play, having fun and playing, and like one of my favorite people, rick rubin I mean he always talks about how I mean the best work anybody does is when they're in a childlike state of life. And it's like sad today because, again, I'm grateful I had that but then I still have, I mean, a smartphone in my pocket, I'm attached to and like I got a cell phone when I was 14 and that was a big, I mean change of life for a lot of people in that age. But now I see a lot of my I mean nieces and nephews and some of my friends' kids, where it's like you're worrying about things that I didn't even know existed or crossed my mind in the smallest of ways, and so I'm so envious of people who do get to have that and I'm always very proud and of the parents that are still like, yeah, we still have to have we have to fight for it more, but we still want to have our kids go out, have fun, enjoy the nature and really enjoy part of what makes me in this whole area, so great.
Charlie Warner:Totally, and I think that you know, even these days, like I, I see a lot of families out and about and there's just structured play and they, you know, and and I think that free play is really essential and it's actually something that we bring into our work, at human work. We have a value that we operate by, um, and it's a work or play, well, work too, um, and so we really bring a lot of play into it and I think that you're right, like, having that playful approach makes all the difference in terms of how we learn, in terms of how we, how we retain information and how we connect with others and the land. You know. I think that that's really important as well, especially here, and it's something I certainly value about growing up in Salt Lake and being in Salt Lake and what keeps me in Utah.
Erik Nilsson:Totally so. All right, so you have this childhood. You are the kids on the bikes run around the neighborhood, running around the hills, scraping your knees, having the best time on the bikes, running around the neighborhood, running around the hills, scraping your knees, having the best time. I mean when you're starting to transition into, I mean like, adolescence and really planning for the next phase of your life. I mean, what were you looking forward to? I mean, what were some of your plans that eventually led to where you are now?
Charlie Warner:Honestly, I was so present as a kid I had no idea of what my future would be. I wanted to be everything. When I grew up as a kid, like I couldn't decide and I really didn't care, you know, I had a lot of friends that were like I want to do this, I want to do that, I want to and we're really determined to. You know, go have a career. And I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs and so that wasn't really like a thing for me. But I was just so like in the moment growing up that I just didn't really have any sense of that and ended up, you know, I went to Skyline High School. I was supposed to go to Brighton, but it was one of the first years that the Skyline program had the IB program oh cool. Went through that and then went to.
Charlie Warner:I was supposed to go to Westminster for my undergrad, had a scholarship there and then just like backed out, like out of the blue, and decided to go to the? U? Um, and I have no idea why to this day, but I'm so glad I did and so I went to the? U and just kind of like wandered, meandered my way through my undergrad and you know, it was really great because I would between classes I would go up to like red butte and hike behind red butte gardens and you know andte Gardens and you know, and like what other college do you get to? Maybe like somewhere in Montana or maybe in parts of Colorado, but when do you get to like hike between classes?
Charlie Warner:Yeah it was pretty incredible.
Erik Nilsson:Because I went to the U2 and it's so funny comparing that experience to other people Like I have. A handful of friends went to Boulder, for example, and they'd be like oh, it's so great, you know, go to school. And then on Fridays we'd drive all the way up to the ski resort. We'd stay there for the weekend, come back and I was like what I'm like? No, no, no, I have my skis on my car, I'm done with class at 11. I'm on a chairlift by 1130. I'm back by three.
Erik Nilsson:Homework, work, whatever it is, and it's such a unique experience and it's fun to see because when I started at the U is right after they joined the Pac-12. Oh, yeah. So then there's this huge influx of out of state students and it was fun because, like and this is part of the out of state people energy that I appreciate so much because they're like oh, I'm here, this is why I'm here and I'm so excited on turbo, like, yeah, I'm way too jaded by this. I've lived around this too long. I need to catch on to this, but in small doses. So it's always nice to have them like oh, we're going skiing, we're going to go skiing every day. I'm like, all right, like I'm in.
Charlie Warner:Yeah.
Erik Nilsson:Like let's do it and it's so fun to just see that. Get that, just like the reputation that it has. And it remains true because, again, like I mean a couple here and there, but when you pair that outdoor experience with the education that you have and like the trajectory where they use that, it's hard to hate. But also I do want to give credit to Westminster because but also like to compare them it's very apples and oranges.
Charlie Warner:Oh totally.
Erik Nilsson:You have this small liberal arts school that I mean pulls so many people from the East Coast Right and, like I have friends that went there and I mean they love their experience because they did have these intimate classes and really got to have these, these, these great connections as well. So you really can't go wrong. But I'll, if I had to choose over again, I'd still go to the? U.
Charlie Warner:Same For my undergrad at least. I'm glad that I went to my. I'm glad I went to Westminster for my master's.
Erik Nilsson:Okay. So, and it's helpful to go back to college because, like, a lot of people go through the same decision process where it's like okay, what do I want to do, what do my parents want me to do, what's going to make me a lot of money? And there's not really a lot of conversation of like, what like aligns with me and who I am, how I think, how I operate, which, to be fair, to expect that much from someone at that time of life is a lot. But like, for example, for me, I went through college a little differently, where when I went and started I was like I want to be an architect, that's all I'm going to do, that's all I care about.
Erik Nilsson:Took my intro to architecture class, I'm like nope, not enough jobs, not enough money, not my type of creativity. And then went from architecture to civil engineering, to pre-pharmacy, to I have no idea, and then business and then finance, and I would say I like where I ended up, but I probably would have changed a little bit differently. But at the end of the day, like, your undergrad isn't, you're signing in blood what you're gonna be doing for the rest of your life it really just gets a good foundation. So I always applaud the people who go in with more of an open mind and exploring, rather than what classes are going to give me an A, what teachers are the easiest, how can I get out of here the fastest? It's like I get it, but there's also a little bit more to explore during the process.
Charlie Warner:Yeah, totally, and I think that that's an important element of finding that fulfillment, of like being able to be free to explore. And I think you know our parents' generation, or at least my parents' generation, was very, you know, like pick your path and you know, and getting your degree will kind of set you up for success and that's just not the case anymore, is, like you said, like the undergrad just doesn't. You know it's it's not what it used to be, um, but for me, in my experience, you know, it kind of mirrors like growing up. You know I was definitely a kid that wandered around in in nature, um, but it was also, you know, I grew up as a queer kid in Utah and back in the 90s, like there wasn't a lot of representation, there wasn't a lot of acceptance, and you know, on the east side, where I grew up, like it was very conservative, it was very religious and you know I have family that's in the church and for me, like growing up here and learning how to fit in in a different way that most people don't fit in, it's truly like this wandering for me and that's what happened throughout my childhood, both in nature but also in community and through school Like, uh, I think if I would have gone to Westminster for my undergrad um, I maybe would have found a sense of community and belonging a little bit faster than I did at the U.
Charlie Warner:But at the U I just kind of was, like you know, floating around, I bounced between so many different degrees and at the end of it just sort of pieced together a communications degree at the end. And you know, I'm so glad I was able to do that and really truly like explore and wander these different paths of like. Well, what would it be like to do pre-med? What would it be like to do international studies? What would it be like to? I actually never tried business, never in a million years, what I thought I would do business, and here I am.
Charlie Warner:But yeah, it was just, you know, this wandering and it gave me this perspective of being able to understand the different experiences of people because I got to like try it and play with it and explore it a little bit, but without this pressure of like I have to. I think a lot of people growing up here just had this, had a lot more pressure around being a certain way, and I'm really grateful that I was given an opportunity, both in terms of my family, culture and also my. You know, I think my identity just to grow be a little bit like a bit of a misfit, you know, or I'm just kind of wandering around and it was really, really cool and it, like I said, it gave me a lot of respect for just like the paths that people are on and that everybody has their own path and there is no right path. We just have to figure out the path that we're walking.
Erik Nilsson:Totally and it's it's always an interesting conversation, I mean especially with I mean members of, like, the LGBTQ population and growing up in Utah with the LDS dynamic, and I think there's like a huge help for that population because, again, like you have to be so comfortable in who you are and like draw a hard line where there's so many people who will go whichever which way the wind goes to. I mean whether it's an external validation or social expectation to get there, but but to have that confidence at a young age helps you up. But then it's hard because there's kind of these like conflicting things that happen in salt lake, where you have the ever strong presence of the church and all the, the teachings and principles that come from that, which is one thing. There's a lot of good of that because they do create a great community and that is part of what also creates this misfit kind of counterculture, part of it as well. And I do love this counterculture because there's parts of it that I mean interact with on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.
Erik Nilsson:But it is tends to be very accepting and that's part of why I mean I joke to people like I'm I'm a Salt Lake citizen, I'm not a Utahan, because these are my people.
Erik Nilsson:I get too far away from Salt Lake and I don't recognize people as much. But not to downplay how hard those experiences are I mean talking to all my friends who have gone through it it's like usually all of us are like tears in our eyes to hear of all of it. But I do am proud of the way Salt Lake has changed and how recent leadership has prioritized a lot of that and really making people feel seen, heard, validated. Recent leadership has prioritized a lot of that and really making people feel seen, heard, validated and even just as like a I mean data point you look at, I mean pride after a year and somehow just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and more people understand and show up and then want to participate. So it's a fun community that's been paved with a lot of hard experiences and emotional struggle, but that they can again go back and be that community and that voice for other people as well who are going through it now.
Charlie Warner:Yeah, yeah, and I think that it's such a reflection of Utah itself. Right, I see it, as Utah has some of the most diverse landscape of any state, really. We have the Alpine, we have the desert, we've got so much beautiful space, even though we're high desert in terms of, like, our ecosystem. But to be able to, you know, I see that as like the same with our, you know, being here as people, is that we have this very cool expression of like our diversity and reflection of our diversity, just as a state and as a people that belong to this state, and I just think it's so important, you know, to have that and it's what I love about Utah and what brings me back. You know, I actually, I'll be honest I moved away last year for a hot second to Portland and I've tried to move away a couple times.
Erik Nilsson:It always gets you back.
Charlie Warner:It always brings me back and there's just, you know, there's something about Utah and Salt Lake specifically, that is, you get the big city feel a little bit it's not like New York or anything like that, but it's so, it's a taste of it and but then you get the mountains and then you can be in the national parks and then you can, like I can be in literal wilderness in like 15 minutes from my house, yeah, and it's just the best.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, no, I totally agree, Like I always looked at people who left and I was like you did it.
Erik Nilsson:You got out like congratulations, and then all of a sudden, like three, five, six, seven, whatever years later they're back. I'm like no, like you did it. How did you? Why are you back? And I mean, I too was one of those people.
Erik Nilsson:I lived in Seattle for four years and then came back and at first I was kind of bummed to come back because I was like, oh, I got away but came back for a job and like at first I wasn't very stoked about it, but then I was, but then it wasn't, until, I mean, I left for another six months traveling the country of it. I'm like I'm actually more excited to go back to Salt Lake than I thought I was. But I'm not saying everybody has to go pack every single box off the list before they're like all right, fine, salt Lake, you win, we'll do it. But I think it does help give people a perspective if they do think the grass is greener, there are a lot of great places to live. But when you think about the whole package Salt Lake has it's, it's, it's hard to yeah, um, okay, so you? So you went to the, you, you had your undergrad and then you went to Westminster got your masters and what was your masters in?
Charlie Warner:I took some time between those. Um, I, I uh, yeah, my undergrad was in communications and I kind of played in entrepreneurship for a while. Um, I worked for a consultancy for a while, did kind of like the the big job, right. Um got burned out of that and I actually went to go work for REI, just out of the blue of like I need some, some recovery time and worked for REI and I actually got to guide um for REI and that was awesome, because you know I got to work in the mountains, um.
Charlie Warner:But then you know, I knew that I like wanted to do a little bit more and I actually got into with the Utah High School Cycling League and I was running programs for them, and that was really enjoyable for a couple of years, and but I just knew that I like I could just feel in my bones that I just needed to be my own boss in a way, like I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur and so in 2017, my partner at the time and I both quit our jobs we had just gotten married, actually Both quit our jobs started a company that did like CTO as a service for local startups and did that for a little bit. And then one of our clients actually decided that they wanted to, you know, work with us more full time, and that's when I decided to go get my MBA, and then my partner at the time went and kind of co-founded that company, and so I was in this really interesting place of I was doing some cool work, making good money, having my own schedule, doing stuff that I really enjoyed doing in terms of strategy. I love strategic thinking and went to Westminster and I did their program. It's a project-based program. They have both the undergrad version, which is the BBA, and then they're actually kind of sunsetting this program that I did, but combining it with their traditional program.
Charlie Warner:But I did a project-based program and so it's really applied learning and that's what I teach in and I think that it's such a magical way of learning because it's like how do you learn how to ride a bike? You just do it. There's no books and so, same with kind of running a business. There are certain things that you need to do and you need to learn and be aware of, just like learning how to maintain your bike Um, but you know. Learning to build a business, learning to um, learn how you know to connect with the customers that you need to connect with, is really applied learning. It's not something that, like, anybody can tell you how to do Um and they can share their wisdom, but their wisdom is their path.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah.
Charlie Warner:And so, you know, I went to Westminster, um, got my MBA.
Charlie Warner:I graduated in 2020.
Charlie Warner:Um, so I didn't actually have like a graduation, um, and but it didn't really matter to me, um, but then they asked me to start teaching, and so I started teaching for them and have been doing so since then and just love it I am.
Charlie Warner:I love being an adjunct professor. It's like it brings me a lot of joy and a balance to my like entrepreneurship and my day job, where I get to really guide people in cool ways, and it gives me a taste of like I work with people that are in traditional careers, that are looking to kind of elevate their career, and then I work with people who are starting their own businesses, and so I get like a taste of everything. And that's the coolest part is, you know, like I said, I just like didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up as a kid, and now I kind of get a taste of it all. You know I was. I was teaching a student a couple of semesters ago who is in like carbon fiber design, and to learn the industry of carbon fiber design, just like it just like lights up my brain. I'm like it's so interesting, but I wouldn't want to work in it.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, I'm the same way. Like someone I mean the podcast is an example I can sit and talk to anybody about anything for any amount of time and like, the more I don't know about something, the more curious I get. And so I mean, if I sit across from someone who's carbon fiber design, I'm like, how do you source your materials? How do you turn those into good? What are your customers like? And the next thing I know they're like do you know anything about us? Like no, I'm about to, I hope, but we'll go there and like I think there's something interesting about the perspective that you have, which is unique, where because even in today's world, there's a lot of questioning of kind of the institution of academia, and I mean essentially YouTube. And where I mean YouTube like because even I mean using myself as an example with the podcast, like I didn't know anything about editing video, audio hosting, I mean anything right and then so pull up a YouTube video okay, cool, like I know how to do it.
Erik Nilsson:oh, I should probably do this different next time, and that's a lot of that applied learning you talk about. But then, on the the other side of things, you do get to go to an institution and teach people in a more traditional way of these fundamentals and aspects that they want to apply in their life, and so it's kind of interesting that you get these two sides of a coin and put them together and there's probably a lot of value in there. I can't say specifically what it would be, but it's nice to have kind of this like more abstract way of the applied side, but also kind of the more grounded and fundamental traditions of an MBA.
Charlie Warner:Well, I think it goes back to what we were talking about earlier with play. Right Is like applied learning is just play. You know, you looking at how do I edit, how do I create a podcast, and kind of play Like because you had an innate desire to do so, you were very curious about it, I would imagine, like trying to put these things all together and looking at YouTube and, you know, doing all the research, if somebody told you to do that and put a grade on it, yeah, you probably wouldn't have done it. And so for me, it's this. You know, this style of learning is we get to really tap into that genuine innate desire to do something and accomplish something.
Charlie Warner:That play with the community learning aspects, right, is that actually part of learning? And and and same with kids, right is like you were saying about I got to go out with my friends and play with the sticks and it's like, yeah, you can go play with yourself, but it's really community matters in this and um, being able to hold those lessons and witness those lessons, and I think that that's the cool intersection of you know the way that I prefer to teach and learn and, honestly, how I work with clients as well.
Erik Nilsson:Awesome and okay. So you graduated from U in 2020. I mean, at what point did I mean human work come to be? I mean, what was the story behind? I mean wanting to get this all started.
Charlie Warner:Uh, it's funny. So human work I've come full circle. So my first business out of uh, out of my undergrad actually um was a, a similar model to what human work is, but, um, essentially, like, after my MBA, I started teaching and you know, like I said, my partner at the time had gone off and and teaching. And you know, like I said, my partner at the time had gone off and and, and I took our team to this um, this client of ours, and, um, I was like I don't really want to go back into tech. I, you know, it was fun for a minute, but what I really was seeing is I had all these friends that had all of these amazing ideas and wanted to work in community, um, and so I was like, well, I, I kind of like this small business thing. I had friends that wanted to start food trucks or just do their work in a way that was sustainable for them. That isn't this huge thing, it doesn't have to be a unicorn, it can just be. I'm working in a way that it sustains and fulfills me, I'm connected in my community, I'm doing something good for my community. It's sort of this solopreneur sort of thing. And so I got curious about that and I had a couple of friends or contacts at the time who were like, well, you know business, like can you help us? And so I started playing with that.
Charlie Warner:And then in, let's see, in end of 2020, it was like December of 2020, a good friend of mine, um, who's a physical therapist, uh, ended up getting laid off and at the time, you know, during late 2020, nobody was hiring and her partner was also a pt and couldn't find a job, moved here from oregon, couldn't find a job, so ended up like doing, like, like nursing or something like something completely out of his wheelhouse. And, um, you know, she's like I'm desperate, like we, or something like something completely out of his wheelhouse. And, um, you know, she's like I'm desperate, like we, we need to do something. And I was like, have you thought about doing your own clinic? And you know, create your own job.
Charlie Warner:Yeah, and you know, in two weeks, over the holidays, we put together a business for her Um, and she was scared to death. She's so terrified and never in a million years she's like I don't think I could ever. I asked her I was like what are your financial goals? Like, what do you want? And she's like never in a million years would I think of making six figures ever. And you know, in two weeks over the holidays, we started a clinic. She found a space in January and started growing this clinic and you know, like, giving her a little bit of support throughout the process. By the end of the year she, you know, she hit that number plus 50% and now she runs a clinic that's, you know, five staff. She it's running on its own. She just had a baby, so it's like literally running on its own.
Charlie Warner:And you know, she had no business experience and I didn't. You know it's not the way that I would have run the business, but she's just done a really good job and I, that's the sort of thing that I find so much joy in is seeing these people, who have a strong desire to help and a lot of skills to do so, be able to create a essentially a playground for their work to exist in. And so that's where human work came from. Is, you know, with her it wasn't necessarily like we could do the business planning all day long and I can make a thousand different business plans for how to run a PT clinic Right. And so it wasn't the work that was the challenge for her. It was a lot of her own sense of, you know, imposter syndrome and confidence. And so that's where human work really came from. Is that, you know, the human element of learning has to come first before we can make any sort of like knowledge impact. Is she has to be open to learning. And going back to that play, and it's fun, because her purpose in work, and also like the mission of her company, is to enable all ages and identities to play without limits. You know she's a physical therapist, she works with climbers and mountain athletes and you know it's like this idea of like play without limits. And so what we did because she was so scared of business, what we did was made it playful the finance piece, the like, literally everything.
Charlie Warner:And you know, in this process, like I was just doing that as a like an independent contractor, essentially I was just, you know, an advisor going through my own name, going through my own name. But then I realized in this process that I was sending her and my other clients to all of the same resources. So all of the same, like the same CPA, the same wellness professionals, the same leadership coaches, because that's not my background, like I could probably do it, but I'm a strategist, I'm not. And so I realized that I was sending these clients to all these same people. I was like, why are we doing this alone? We're all in our own little silos. What if we actually?
Charlie Warner:And it's hard, because the clients now have to work with me, and then they have to work with the other person and they have to manage five different providers.
Charlie Warner:And so, this way, we're like, let's just see what it's all about, let's. And so, this way, we're like, let's just see what it's all about, let's try to combine it. And so a year ago, we launched human work as an ecosystem of mentors is how we describe it is that clients can buy a membership, essentially, and they get to, they get in on the, on the mentoring, and they get one-on-one, and then from there we introduced a program that I've been kind of running clients through for the last few years, called Groundwork, which is really around that understanding, the relationship to work. Not necessarily the tactical, practical skills we also have programs for that but more so the you know what is meaningful and fulfilling for you, what matters to you. And so, yeah, we did that last. We ran our first test cohort last fall and since we've, you know, now we're in the middle of our summer cohort, we're launching another one in fall and it's been going just incredibly. I didn't realize that community was really the medicine that helps with this. It's essential to this process.
Erik Nilsson:The medicine that helps with this. It's essential to this process. Yeah, lots of thoughts, because I think one. Going back to my opening thoughts, the more that people can align with their purpose, their fulfillment, their joy, and then dovetail that with work, that's when magical things happen, that's when fulfillment happens, that's when people are happy, that's when I mean she can hit this goal of like oh, I've never thought in a million years I'd ever make six figures Like well, guess what Year one better, think of a better goal because you already did it.
Erik Nilsson:But there's also like an overarching theme, I think I feel like in today's world, people don't think that they can learn new things. People don't like there's so much anxiety and fear around anything new that it tends to paralyze people in their, in their, in their steps. And so I think it's great what you're doing, especially if I mean we'll tease your friend who's a PT as example, like she could have stayed paralyzed forever. She could have stayed there. She kept applying for jobs, maybe move somewhere else, stay working as a nurse and just kind of live in this almost panic state. But instead she's like I think, like you're, like you want me to start a clinic, like okay, like I can help you get this started. And then, once you get enough repetitions and this snowball starts to form, it's like wait, I can do hard things. All these things I can learn how to do. And now I'm working for myself, providing again, like her goal is to make I mean help people be at play and to get people there and to have her fulfill that. I mean it's contagious and I would guess if you go to her patients and say, well, how do you feel about her? Like, well, she's great, she loves what she does and she smiles every day, compared to people who don't have that same sort of experience, that rubs off and is shown in the same way. And so I love that you get to have this experience to work with people, to have that impact and have give them the tools they need.
Erik Nilsson:Not necessarily say I'm going to do it all for you here's my retainer, here's my fee, but to really be hands on and then help them do that. So I think it's a very relevant thing today. I mean especially. I mean using tech is a great example. I mean everyone's scared in tech. Everyone's like am I going to lose my job next week, next month, next year? And it's hard for people to feel very confident, and there's when people are working in a stress and fearful environment. You're never going to, it's not a happy place to be and you're never going to be your best self and show up every day smiling but then also like, if the worst does come to happen, someone does lose their job. It's like, hey, like, just you know there's other options you can do and you can often do them both in tandem. Right, and it's good to know that there are resources to help support them in that process, because it's terrifying.
Charlie Warner:Well, yeah, I mean, I just I actually just completed a professional certification in a program called the trauma of money, probably one of the best things I've ever done for myself.
Charlie Warner:I was doing it for my clients, right, but cause I work with, you know, entrepreneurs who are scared of their money, and so I was like, oh, trauma of money, I can help them if I like, know the skills, and it turns out I got more out of it. But you know, I think a lot of what they say is in the program is, you know, in terms of that nervous system is like, if we're constantly in fear, at risk of our livelihoods, of our, you know, of not having a job, not being able to pay our mortgage, all of these things, not being able to pay or to feed our kids, that creates a nervous system response and there is no access to play, there is no access to creativity, and so it's all forced. And so, you know, as a leader, I'm really curious about how do we actually bring more play into work, because you watch little kids play with Legos and they can build anything, but you put an adult there and you say, okay, build something, and they get all stressed.
Erik Nilsson:Oh, I can't do this. I'm not good at this, I'm not creative.
Charlie Warner:And, and they get all stressed oh I can't do this, I'm not good at this, I'm not creative, and when did that shift? You know, and that's my curiosity, and sort of what you know I love about the work that I do is because I get to, like, really play, and you know, and coming back to Utah is like growing up here allowed me access to that. Is that, you know, I think if I grew up in I just recently, over the last couple of years, spent a lot of time in Boston and if I had grown up in Boston, there is so much stress and competition and you know, and there's no freedom to wander, you know. And so for me, bringing that into an experience of work where it's like, no, let's discover, like you just created this podcast because you were interested in it and it was all self-driven, it was all playful, and work is not that way, and I'm really hopeful that we can change that for some.
Erik Nilsson:Totally, and it always comes up. My brain keeps going back to the same thing that one of my favorite people I've learned over the past year, jay Shetty. He talks about it because, like a lot of things a lot about, like a lot about of his content is it all comes back to, kind of his experience as a monk and in Hinduism. And he talks about because in Western culture, especially in US culture, we like to use the word karma, is like oh, you do bad things, bad things happen, but it's really not exactly that. I mean karma is saying you keep doing the same things in the same way and don't learn to do anything different and you're going to keep having the same outcomes time and time again. And if you do learn and change your karma, then you can reach towards your dharma, which is your fulfillment, your purpose, your life.
Erik Nilsson:And everybody needs to have their own dharma. I mean Jay's one of his books. He applies everything to dating and he's like everybody in a relationship needs to have their own dharma and you can support your partner in it, you can support your friend in it, but you can't do it for them. Like it has to be this journey that everybody has to find and rely on and get to in order so they can do so. But to your point, like there usually has to be some sort of play involved, some sort of creativity. It some sort of creativity. It can't be fear-based, because if you're living in a freeze, fight or flight scenario and you're trying to find your purpose, it's not going to work very well. And so I mean, I guess, if someone's listening and they're curious about how to get to, I mean like that starting point, or get past that fear and that anxiety and those expectations that voice in their head.
Charlie Warner:I mean, what advice would you give them? Well, a lot of it is listening to yourself, right? It's like really trying to understand what is um, what is my own voice versus what is the, what are the voices that I'm just hearing outside of me? Um, and I'm going to bring it back to business because I think that it's it's really relevant. Here is there's a um, a great business mind, uh, an author, jim Collins. He wrote good to great Um, and in strategy, he's, you know, one of the like. He's literally researched the all of the best businesses in the world.
Erik Nilsson:Good to Great is like the like starting point, the one yeah, go from there.
Charlie Warner:And a lot of his research has shown that. You know, having what he calls a core ideology, which is an organizational, like purpose and values, is essential to the long-term success of a business. And I, you know, teaching in and this is part of the story here is like I, I teach that at westminster, um, and I teach strategic development and strategic road mapping and planning and all of that and it all comes down to that purpose and values. And and when I've been doing it with businesses, I've realized that it's the same for people is that, you know, actually I can facilitate an organization in understanding their mission and values and I can also facilitate an individual in that. And honestly, that's how human work has grown is that I started with organizations, I started with businesses, and then I realized that if the founder, if the leader, if the you know, the people involved, don't have a connection to their own sense of purpose and values, then the organization isn't either. And so we've just developed a process of helping people align to their own core ideologies. And it's just I don't even know how to describe the process. I mean, I use a whiteboard or notes or whatever, and I just ask a lot of questions of like where have you? You know what are the detours that you've taken in life, because the detours will show us where our values are. You know what path have you been on and what matters to you, and we just have some really deep conversations and then it just kind of appears.
Charlie Warner:And you know I was working with a client recently who runs a pediatric dentistry up in like Weber County and you know his job is to. You know, help kids shape their jaws, essentially in a way, because there's a lot of research out there that shows that. You know mouth breathing and the way that we eat now is affecting our general health, right, adhd, all sorts of different things. And so you know his whole passion is to. You know he wanted to be a dentist, but really his purpose and this is something that we landed in the other day is his purpose is to make space to breathe, and when I mean I just get chills thinking about it and I witnessed him in landing in that, but you know it made sense in his whole trajectory of life. Is everything that he's done until now has been around that, either a resistance to that or an embrace of that? And it's really a cool process and people can do it. I mean, lots of people do it on their own. I found mine in nature in Utah, actually, and you know it sounds a little woo, but it's really like what matters most to you.
Charlie Warner:And how can you align that in the larger trajectory without a job title? Right, it's not make space to breathe, it's not a job title, but it does reflect. You know, his experience in a hyper competitive family is he didn't have space to breathe, is not a job title, but it does reflect. You know, his experience, um, in a hyper-competitive family is he didn't have space to breathe. And he doesn't have space to breathe in his business right now because it's just, it's just not running well, um, and the way that he needs to, and so he's working so much. And so now my job as a, as a mentor, as a facilitator, as a coach, is to help him make space for himself to breathe, so that that he can make space for these kids to breathe, because that's what he wants.
Charlie Warner:And so, you know, for people who are curious about this work, I mean there's a lot of ways that you can do it. Meditation, some people will like that. I mean there's a lot of. You know, if people are religious and and have a connection to you know, a God or um, there's ways to do it that way. There is no right way. It's just a matter of again quieting all the voices on the outside and saying what actually matters to me, um, and so, of course, you know people can come to us if they want it facilitated, but, uh, it's not necessary.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, and I think it's something that's hard for a lot of people to get there, because so many people I mean everyone to an extent is used to okay, like what's step one, what's step two, what's what's kind of this one size fits all for everybody. That needs to be done, but in reality it's like oh no, no, no, no, this is a perfectly customized, tailored, fit solution just for you, and you are the one at the helm and it's up to you to do the work. It's not something that you can just outsource, but it is one of the most fulfilling things that people can do is understanding those values. How do you like to spend your time? Who do you like to spend your time with? What are you doing during all of this? I think it's something that really is.
Erik Nilsson:I think it's a great way to start that journey, because if you don't know why you're doing something, then why are you doing something Right? Something right? Um, because even just going to, you know, let's call it corporate america, where I mean every company, especially once it gets to a certain size, has, like, company values, right, and it it never feels authentic, right? I've never been in a company like, oh, this is actually. We actually do feel this. It's usually some sort of like hr campaign to get people to do something a certain way or or some sort of integrity yes, exactly.
Erik Nilsson:And then you'll hear like wait, wait, integrity. But then what happened?
Erik Nilsson:right exactly um, but so it's something that you can't be like, oh, I like those values, like I'll follow those. It's like, oh, no, no, those aren't my values, so I don't think it would ever get along. I'll not say get along, but it's not a path that would. That would be the most fulfilling for me. I mean especially in my life, as I've cause.
Erik Nilsson:I like your, the term you use like detours, like when would you detour? Cause for me, like I'm a very curious person and I will always try to find different paths and go different ways. And if I ever get to like kind of a point, like okay, how did we get here? I don't like this. So I was like, okay, let's go back to the last time, I knew that I was confident, happy, consistent in that, in that path, and then we'll go try to find another detour whatever, instead of just like staring at this path I mean, well, I'm already this far down, or like I don't know this, this, this might make sense. If I just keep going, maybe it'll make sense. Um, but yeah, I think it's a. It's a theme that, even if it's, I mean starting a business or um solving problems or even just becoming more present and connected with yourself. It's a thing that everybody can benefit in some way, shape or form, to find who they are and what makes them happy.
Charlie Warner:Totally, and the analogy I use actually comes from growing up in Utah. It's like you know, imagine that you're climbing a mountain, but it's a mountain that's never been climbed before, because it's yours right. If it's somebody else's right, then if it's a business, it's a franchise, like you've been walking it your whole life and there are detours and we just need to orient to where you are now and where you want to go, and to understand what the vision at the top is. It's like what do you actually want to see for your life or for the world? And it doesn't have to be grandiose, but then the values are the tools that you bring. It's your compass, it's your pack, it's your boots, it's your poles, it's all of these things that you come prepared with and they're the things that are going to keep you safe throughout this process. And so for me, you know, when I hear about like the corporate values I call those values TM, as in like trademarks right Is that they're just words on the wall a lot of times, and that's what Jim Collins says is that you know, companies that actually live and die and work by their values are the ones that are they're going to be the most successful. And so, you know, in leaders, for leaders, it's like, do you actually articulate your values, do you actually live by them? And are they just generic, right and like?
Charlie Warner:For me, a value can be integrity, but that's not the whole thing. So when we do values work, it's more like a value statement. And so, for example, this PT client, one of her values is free to play. That's also part of her purpose. At human work, like I said before, we have a. This is also play, but play well work too. We also have a value of embrace symbiotic prosperity work too. We also have a value of embracing symbiotic prosperity and that, you know, that really guides our own financial decisions. And it's like, okay, is it equality, is it accessibility, is it, you know, love, all of those words, equality, right, they all go into embrace symbiotic prosperity, but for us, it's this guiding light of no, we run every decision through this value and we talk about it constantly with our clients, with my team.
Charlie Warner:I think about it all the time and is it actually? Are we moving in the right direction? And the thing is is like when we're aligned to our values, it's actually going to guide us the right way? If we ignore our values and we just do like the thing that we're, we think we're supposed to do. It's not going to do that, it's not going to guide us the right way, and so I always encourage people to you know, think of values, of like yeah, I can value integrity, but find your value statements, the things that are truths for you, that have guided you this far, is probably the reason that your detour before is because there was a value that you know you bumped up against and you're like this isn't it and I don't want this.
Charlie Warner:And then you looked to that value, whether you could articulate it or not, and it guided you in some direction. And so the process that we use is just a really like an inquiry of what were the detours. Let's understand it, but it's a lot of fun. It's the work I can't not do that's what we always talk about is like, what is the work that you can't not do? And that's mine and I just love that process. It just lights me up every day.
Erik Nilsson:I love that you get to be so passionate about something that you do. That also helps people become their best selves, reach the goals they want to Sometimes the goals they didn't even know they could and really unlocking so much of it. And I think to your point. I mean it does start with all of the values. And I remember one of my therapists a couple of years ago because we were doing value mapping, because it was when I was going through a faith transition and it's like so what do I care about? Actually, Like what are my values? And I'll never forget she had me this paper and it was like 200 to 500 different values.
Erik Nilsson:She's like every day cross off five to 10 and you just got to figure out which ones don't matter, Cause if you don't don't matter, then you will. And I was like, oh, and once I started to whittle away, I was like there are some consistencies, Like I get what does matter, and it really did help me a lot. And once you get to the point where, like I mean, you can rattle them off, Like community is a big thing for me, Self-improvement is a big thing for me, I like to be able to be the best person that I can be and continue to learn and fill the holes. I like to be able to be intellectually stimulated, like intellect and conversation.
Erik Nilsson:I mean shocker and again a few others that I've shared on previous episodes and such, but it's, it's it's. Sometimes it becomes such like a buzzword, and I hate that it has, because once you don't think it's a buzzword, it actually does help, guide and lead you with those principles. That's where, again, that's where magic happens and people find their true selves, which I know you have, like a lot of exciting stuff coming up. I've known that you do a lot of workshops as well with with human work, and then you also have, I mean, a TEDx speaking event coming up in October. I mean, tell me more about that and some info in case people want to join it.
Charlie Warner:Yeah, thanks for asking. So, yeah, I, I kind of randomly applied, with some encouragement from some friends this last season, to TEDx Salt Lake City and I was accepted. Um, the talk that I will be giving is on, um, how to use nature to inspire better business strategies and workplaces. So literally a lot of the stuff that we're talking about already. Of you know, a business needs a core ideology. A person needs a core ideology. Um, you know, looking at how do we incorporate things like seasons into our work and seasonal cycles of both periods of growth and rest, and I'm pretty stoked on it.
Charlie Warner:So it's October 7th. I'm currently in like second draft mode so it's not quite dialed in yet, but I'm definitely feeling my own imposter syndrome, but I'm excited about it and I'm really excited. They do such a good job. Tedx Salt Lake City does such a good job around like coaching and giving us all the like, the workshops and the tools around how do you speak in front of an audience and you know their promises to that will give the best speech of our lives and I'm excited for it. I'm definitely nervous. I didn't think I was going to get in Out of like 300 applicants too, like I was like, ah, I'll just try and it'll just be a fun thing. And then, yeah, and then I got in and I was like, oh okay, I got to do this now, and it's not like everybody's like.
Erik Nilsson:oh yeah, I'm very used to speaking in front of hundreds of people on stage and they're all staring at me and it's just me.
Charlie Warner:Yeah, and I'm like, who am I to talk about business? And you know, and they're like, well, who are you to talk about business? Like you're a professor. I'm like, yeah, but I'm an adjunct and you know, and yeah, I, I've been trying to explore like different ways of bringing in like Utah, like, um, like Pando, the Aspen Grove and the great Salt Lake and these things that are, so you know, fundamentally Utah that I've certainly grown up to appreciate and love. I go into my backyard, I call it, I go into Big Cottonwood Canyon and I go for a hike and I look at nature. Nature's not perfect, but it is abundant. I mean abundance and profitability, right, those are two mirroring things. It is sustainable, it's resilient, it profitability right, those are two mirroring things. It is sustainable, it's resilient, it's adaptable and it's collaborative, right Is that? You know, we look at these things in nature and they're truths in nature, and isn't that what we want for our businesses too?
Erik Nilsson:Yeah.
Charlie Warner:And so I just like see this and I'm like, but we want this like, how can we recreate and mimic nature in a way that um creates a lot of, yeah, fulfillment, abundance, prosperity, um community, all of those things that that nature has? How do we bring those into our business?
Erik Nilsson:yeah, nature, nature has a way of emulating everything, always in such a comforting, but yet it's always right. It's like your parent that's like, hey, listen, you should probably do it this way. No, mom, you don't know, it's not just a phase. And then it's like, hey, I was right. Yeah, you were right.
Charlie Warner:Nature says bet.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, and it wins every single time Zero cap. It's like I'm the same way, like if I'm having a bad day, or like I just kind of feel stuck or like need a refresh. Like you said go into the middle of nowhere in 15 minutes and I usually get back to the car and like all right, feel like myself again.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, onward and upward. Charlie want to end with two questions. I every guest with uh number one. If you could have someone on the small lake city podcast and hear more about what they're up to, who'd you want to hear from?
Charlie Warner:Hmm, that is such a good question. I mean, the first person that comes to mind, which it's kind of interesting, is, um, you know, I've been watching the Olympics a little bit and, um, back when I was running the Utah high school cycling league, uh, there was a competitor from park city, haley Batten, who just won silver in the mountain bike league or in the mountain bike competition. And you know I I haven't talked to her since she was in high school, um, but I'd love to hear her story around, like, yeah, how did she make it to the olympics and what was it like to compete at that level? And like, what, you know, what's hard, easy, good, bad, ugly. Um, about that experience is, you know, have you, have you had an olympian on before?
Erik Nilsson:no medalists and other things, but not the olympics. So yeah very, very relevant need one yeah, hayley batten.
Charlie Warner:I mean I think she'd have some really cool stuff to share. I will.
Erik Nilsson:I will reach out when she's back. She's in her in olympic. I'm like hey, by the way, I got a question for you when you come back. Uh, and then, secondly, if you want to find out more about Human Work, you TEDx event coming up. What's the best place to find info?
Charlie Warner:Yeah, for Human Work humanworkprojectcom or at Human Work, on all of the socials LinkedIn, instagram. We also have a podcast, the Human Work Stories podcast. It's on Spotify and it's coming back. We took a little hiatus break, summer break from it. It was actually more of like a winter spring part of summer break, but it's coming back and there's been some cool conversations on there. And then, yeah, you can find me on Instagram at charliemwarner and the TEDx talk, of course, tedx Salt Lake City. It's October 7th. Tickets will go on sale the end of August. Cool, it's actually just right across the street here at Rose Wagner, so for the folks who are actually downtown, it's just a great Monday evening event. Lots of really cool other speakers which I'm really excited about. And, yeah, that's about it.
Erik Nilsson:Yeah, no, if you're around downtown or if you're not, come check out the TEDx. There's a lot of great speakers, charlie included. Definitely. Check out Human Work Capital A lot of great work going on. Charlie, thank you so much for impacting the I mean Salt Lake and Utah community and I know it's not only in Utah, but it's where home is and nature is and it's easiest to work with. So excited to watch and see what happens with it and excited to hear your speech. That and excited to hear your speech. I know it's going to go well. So if you need someone to talk to to get off the imposter syndrome, I can help. But but congrats on everything and excited for the future.
Charlie Warner:Well, thank you, it was lovely being here and thanks for letting me share.
Erik Nilsson:Anytime, every time, we'll always listen to anyone talk about what they're passionate about. It's like, even if I'm having a bad day and I'm like, do I really want to record today? And then I'll be like
